Changes to WHS in April 2024

[wjemather]

Unfortunately the system allows this to happen without players doing anything “ wrong”

As long as they have a best 8 from 20 they have abided by the rules!

The system doesn't allow it to happen at all, and such players are most certainly doing something wrong.

Rule 1.3 (i)
A player is expected to:
1. Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage
2. Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole
3. Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after the round is completed and before midnight local time
4. Submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability
5. Play by the Rules of Golf
6. Certify the scores of fellow players

Additionally, handicap committees have the responsibility to ensure players meet these responsibilities.

 

[Voyager EMH]

It isn't calling them cheats, it's saying that they need to put more cards in, if they want to jump to that conclusion then that's their problem.

They could put more cards in per year - with no recognisable difference made to their handicap.
Its about an approach to handicap qualifying golf viewed as uninteresting/boring and social golf viewed as enjoyable, interesting and fun.
Difficult to demand that someone must change the way that they think. And difficult to prove that this change has been done or it has not been done.

 

[2blue]

Just to get back to the 2024 changes rather than matchplay under WHS, if, as is likely, only one score should/must be recorded in future in 4BB competitions , I wonder if clubs will only require one entry per partnership in the 2s club if there is only one chance.

Most unusual, I'd have thought, having a 2's Club in a team event.

 

[D-S]

Most unusual, I'd have thought, having a 2's Club in a team event.

Almost all team (4BB or Bowmaker or 2 out 3 /4 scores) Opens and Club comps I have played in have, either an optional or integrated into entrance fee, 2s club.

 

[Swango1980]

I thought that I made it perfectly clear that I do not have a problem.
I accept there are different types of golfer out there who seek enjoyment from the game in a way that differs from my approach to the game.

The handicap system, the statistics, the theory behind it all - all fine. "Fairness" of the system is great.
None of those things can account for the fact that we are not all golfing automatons with the same approach.
I am not advocating any changes to the system to "cure" something that I do not see as a "problem" that needs solving.
I accept the system is a good one as it is.
I accept a number of people are not as interested as I have been in getting their handicaps down to it's lowest ever. I do not view this as cheating. I do not feel cheated.
I've always viewed handicap qualifying comps as "real" golf and social golf as a form of practice.
Others seem to take a different view and see social golf as their main form of golfing enjoyment and handicap qualifying comps a necessary duty to endure that does not give anywhere near the same level of enjoyment. With this approach, which is their choice, I accept that the motivation in handicap qualifying games might not be the same as others.
No system will ever be able to account for this, I strongly suspect.

Ahh, OK. So you're points about some players ability being better than handicap seemed a waste of everyone's time

Thought you were trying to imply it was unfair somehow, and there would be a solution to this issue in match play.

Good attitude tho, might copy it. Bound to be golfers out there that are improving more than me, so will probably never enter a competition again

 

[2blue]

Almost all team (4BB or Bowmaker or 2 out 3 /4 scores) Opens and Club comps I have played in have, either an optional or integrated into entrance fee, 2s club.

So in a B/ball could you have 2 people getting 2's & perhaps the opportunityty of double that in a 4 man team?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Ahh, OK. So you're points about some players ability being better than handicap seemed a waste of everyone's time

Thought you were trying to imply it was unfair somehow, and there would be a solution to this issue in match play.

Good attitude tho, might copy it. Bound to be golfers out there that are improving more than me, so will probably never enter a competition again

Oh no, don't make me responsible for your losing heart.
Remember - some players who can play well below their handicap aren't very motivated in club competitions. Gives us all a chance.

 

[D-S]

So in a B/ball could you have 2 people getting 2's & perhaps the opportunityty of double that in a 4 man team?

Yes because you enter the 'pot' as an individual or as two players (so double the money) or not, its often your choice.

 

[Swango1980]

Oh no, don't make me responsible for your losing heart.
Remember - some players who can play well below their handicap aren't very motivated in club competitions. Gives us all a chance.

I play with one such guy. Left last club over 2 years ago and still has 5 scores on his record from that club. Played off around 21 then, now off 28.

We have a simple solution. Don't play for cash unless everyone submits a GP score (well, at least when he is playing). And we gently encourage him to submit his social scores, I think he is coming round to the idea, as he did a few weeks ago.

Last week, 4 holes were closed and he blobbed the 1st. Still finished with 37 points.

 

[clubchamp98]

The system doesn't allow it to happen at all, and such players are most certainly doing something wrong.

Rule 1.3 (i)
A player is expected to:
1. Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage
2. Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole
3. Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after the round is completed and before midnight local time
4. Submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability
5. Play by the Rules of Golf
6. Certify the scores of fellow players

Additionally, handicap committees have the responsibility to ensure players meet these responsibilities.

Yes but what if they don’t do these things?

What rules has the guy in question that Voyager referenced broken.?

 

[clubchamp98]

Most unusual, I'd have thought, having a 2's Club in a team event.

We have them all the time.
even 4 man team comps.

Twos sweep is run by the pro at £1 pp.
some weeks I have only got 80p back for a two

 

[wjemather]

Yes but what if they don’t do these things?

What rules has the guy in question that Voyager referenced broken.?

The handicap committee should be ensuring they do meet these responsibilities through education as the first step. If necessary, their handicap should be suspended pending submission of sufficient scores. If they refuse to comply, their handicap should be withdrawn.

As indicated, rule 1.3 is the one being broken. From the information that was given, these players are failing to meet 1, 2 and 4 of their responsibilities.

 

[clubchamp98]

The handicap committee should be ensuring they do meet these responsibilities through education as the first step. If necessary, their handicap should be suspended pending submission of sufficient scores. If they refuse to comply, their handicap should be withdrawn.

As indicated, rule 1.3 is the one being broken. From the information that was given, these players are failing to meet 1, 2 and 4 of their responsibilities.

I think you have to much faith in hcap committees ,They are volunteers not MI6.
Not all clubs have the people who will do it. ( thankless job)

plus you assured us the committees workload would not go up Under this system.

 

[wjemather]

I think you have to much faith in hcap committees ,They are volunteers not MI6.
Not all clubs have the people who will do it. ( thankless job)

plus you assured us the committees workload would not go up Under this system.

All clubs must find 3 people who will do the job - it is a requirement of union affiliation and administering handicaps; and I'm more than aware that many clubs have either failed to do this, and/or find appropriate people. It's not a thankless job at all.

This isn't additional workload; it's always been the handicap secs job to ensure their members follow the rules of handicapping.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Are updating boards, maybe at worst every 4 or so years, a major hassle or expense for golf clubs?

Cost will be £1K plus at our place

 

[Swango1980]

Cost will be £1K plus at our place

That is how much a board is?

 

[rulefan]

Cost will be £1K plus at our place

I believe EG are making a contribution. They have told club to hold on for now.

 

[IanMcC]

Mods, please close this thread. It has departed so far away from the title, which I am genuinely interested in, that it pains me physically to visit it now.

 

[rulefan]

Mods, please close this thread. It has departed so far away from the title, which I am genuinely interested in, that it pains me physically to visit it now.

Isn't the 'Report' feature intended for this type of post?

 

[D-S]

I believe EG are making a contribution. They have told club to hold on for now.

I believe we may well recommend getting rid of the boards as the calculation that they will display will cause confusion (I.e.it being rounded versus the unfounded number from which PHs will be devised in comps). The issue is how to replace their function in a way that is quick, easy and accessible for all.
Additionally we are creating another shorter course and having additional tees rated for women so they would have become either very large or incredibly busy.