Mixed comps and extra shots for women

[D-S]

As someone who often plays in mixed competitions, this is of interest to me as I often have to explain why I am getting additional shots sometimes, as generally the women's par is greater than the men's.

Only if it is medal, not if it is Stableford, but as you say ‘sometimes’ you will get extra or fewer shots.

 

[Eesat 90210]

I can understand that (normally) women get extra shots in handicap competitions as their handicap is often based off a higher CR.

But what I can't get my head around is why women get "courtesy" (in old terminology, whatever it is called now) shots in scratch competitions when both men and women compete. The line is trotted out "their CR is higher" but that seems to be a separate statement, if it's a scratch competition and the idea is to find out who the best player on the day is, why is anyone given shots based on handicap calculations which are irrelevant on the day?

 

[Colin L]

There are no set rules for 3 club competitions, but I think that the foundation for each player should be the course handicap for the tee they will be playing from. Whether that's 'full' or a percentage is open to debate. No reason for ladies to receive two extra shots as far as I can see. It's going back to the condescending days of 'courtesy strokes'.

Then there's a degree of myopia affecting how far you can see. Any extra strokes a player, male or female, gets because of the tee he or she is playing from are the result of a mathematical calculation designed to ensure handicapping does what it is supposed to so - give everyone the same chance of winning. No condescension whatsoever.

 

[Eesat 90210]

As someone who often plays in mixed competitions, this is of interest to me as I often have to explain why I am getting additional shots sometimes, as generally the women's par is greater than the men's.
The other issue in matchplay is when the pars of individual holes are different and you have to explain that in matchplay the par of the hole is irrelevant

It's not really the par though as that wouldn't explain it, it's all about what number your handicap is based off (SSS previously, then CR and now whatever it is)

So for example in round figures, if a man off 10 handicap has to score 81 nett 71 to play to his handicap, and a woman off 10 has to score 83 nett 73 to play to her handicap because the course is rated 2 shots m ore difficult for her, in a competition she gets 2 extra shots to balance this out. Clearly it would be unfair for both to play to their handicap and for the man to win by 2 shots.

 

[Colin L]

I can understand that (normally) women get extra shots in handicap competitions as their handicap is often based off a higher CR.

But what I can't get my head around is why women get "courtesy" (in old terminology, whatever it is called now) shots in scratch competitions when both men and women compete. The line is trotted out "their CR is higher" but that seems to be a separate statement, if it's a scratch competition and the idea is to find out who the best player on the day is, why is anyone given shots based on handicap calculations which are irrelevant on the day?

No-one gets "courtesy" shots. Nor is the relevance of a difference in Course Ratings a "line" that is "trotted out". The course rating of the course played from a particular set of tees is based on what a scratch player should score in normal conditions. On the basis of distance alone, the CR for women is normally going to be higher than the CR for men. As their respective handicaps are based on the CR for their gender, any difference between them has to be taken into account if men and women are to play on an equal basis even in a scratch competition.

 

[Colin L]

It's not really the par though as that wouldn't explain it, it's all about what number your handicap is based off (SSS previously, then CR and now whatever it is)

So for example in round figures, if a man off 10 handicap has to score 81 nett 71 to play to his handicap, and a woman off 10 has to score 83 nett 73 to play to her handicap because the course is rated 2 shots m ore difficult for her, in a competition she gets 2 extra shots to balance this out. Clearly it would be unfair for both to play to their handicap and for the man to win by 2 shots.

Suddenly between posts #22 and #24 your vision seems to have cleared. Been to Specsavers perhaps?

 

[Eesat 90210]

No-one gets "courtesy" shots. Nor is the relevance of a difference in Course Ratings a "line" that is "trotted out". The course rating of the course played from a particular set of tees is based on what a scratch player should score in normal conditions. On the basis of distance alone, the CR for women is normally going to be higher than the CR for men. As their respective handicaps are based on the CR for their gender, any difference between them has to be taken into account if men and women are to play on an equal basis even in a scratch competition.

Well I can assure you that line is "trotted out" because I have played in multiple mixed scratch tournaments and that is exactly the justification people give. You've basically just trotted it out yourself in your last line
Also, I put "courtesy shots" in quotation marks and then added comments in brackets to demonstrate that I know that is not the correct term, so whilst they are not called that, it is exactly the same reasoning so they are getting them.

I have demonstrated that I fully understand why a set of players may get extra shots for certain sets of tees in handicap competitions, that makes perfect sense.

However the idea of scratch golf is that everyone should compete equally on the day whoever they are, so the idea of one gender getting an effective handicap for the day in a scratch tournament is completely bonkers to me. Par and CR are irrelevant in scratch golf, the only thing that counts is how many strokes each player has taken, whether it's 60 or 90, so until someone can justify it with more logic than "just because" then I and most others still won't see it as anything other than a misguided attempt at "equality".

 

[woofers]

https://www.dunbargolfclub.com/uploads/dunbar/File/Competitions/WHS%20Charts%20Men.pdf

https://www.dunbargolfclub.com/uploads/dunbar/File/Competitions/WHS%20Charts%20Ladies.pdf

Thanks,
Ken

Thanks, inputting the numbers into the EG calculator (and using par 71 for men and 72 for ladies) the CH for a 10.0 player are 10 and 12 respectively. Best 2 of 3 recommendation is 85% which means PHs of 9 and 10 respectively.
One for the competition committee to explain then.

 

[Eesat 90210]

Suddenly between posts #22 and #24 your vision seems to have cleared. Been to Specsavers perhaps?

I think you need to re-read them more carefully.

One post is about handicap golf, so a male and a female might need to score different netts to play to their handicap.

The other point is about scratch golf, just playing the course on the day, handicaps are irrelevant.

On the scratch side, feel free to explain it differently, I'm happy to think about it a different way. But just repeating the justification for the handicap way of equalising things doesn't relate to scratch golf in my mind, so as someone with a keen interest and understanding of these things generally, if I don't feel a logical explanation has been made, maybe there hasn't.

 

[D-S]

I think you need to re-read them more carefully.

One post is about handicap golf, so a male and a female might need to score different netts to play to their handicap.

The other point is about scratch golf, just playing the course on the day, handicaps are irrelevant.

On the scratch side, feel free to explain it differently, I'm happy to think about it a different way. But just repeating the justification for the handicap way of equalising things doesn't relate to scratch golf in my mind, so as someone with a keen interest and understanding of these things generally, if I don't feel a logical explanation has been made, maybe there hasn't.

In a scratch comp, for example the Scandinavian Mixed Open on the DPWT, it is likely that the two genders will be playing off different tees. This is not the same in most single Gender Scratch Comps. For this reason there will be an offset of the difference in the Corse Rating of the different tees being used, this may be up or down.

The way the DPWT get around this balance is by setting the two sets of tees in such a way that they have effectively the same CR off both for each gender, thereby eliminating the need for any deduction or addition of shots.

 

[wjemather]

I think you need to re-read them more carefully.

One post is about handicap golf, so a male and a female might need to score different netts to play to their handicap.

The other point is about scratch golf, just playing the course on the day, handicaps are irrelevant.

On the scratch side, feel free to explain it differently, I'm happy to think about it a different way. But just repeating the justification for the handicap way of equalising things doesn't relate to scratch golf in my mind, so as someone with a keen interest and understanding of these things generally, if I don't feel a logical explanation has been made, maybe there hasn't.

You are talking about "scratch comps" so handicapping is not irrelevant because scratch for a man and scratch for a woman are not the same.
For a scratch man and a scratch woman to compete equitably, the difference in the benchmark on which their scratch is measured (i.e. the Course Rating) must be applied. Alternatively, they could play a course setup to an identical Course Rating from their respective tees - which is kind of what they attempt to do in tournaments like the Scandinavian Mixed on the DPWT.

 

[fenwayrich]

Then there's a degree of myopia affecting how far you can see. Any extra strokes a player, male or female, gets because of the tee he or she is playing from are the result of a mathematical calculation designed to ensure handicapping does what it is supposed to so - give everyone the same chance of winning. No condescension whatsoever.

You appear to be reading the highlighted sentence in isolation. If you consider it in the context of what I wrote previously, you will see that we are in agreement. Competitors are handicapped on the basis of the set of tees they are playing from, as laid down by the rules.

 

[Eesat 90210]

thereby eliminating the need

You are talking about "scratch comps" so handicapping is not irrelevant because scratch for a man and scratch for a woman are not the same.
For a scratch man and a scratch woman to compete equitably, the difference in the benchmark on which their scratch is measured (i.e. the Course Rating) must be applied.

I appreciate both your replies, but I fully understand the maths and how either different CR's need equalising for a handicap event, or how tees can be different lengths to get the same CR as per the Scandinavian tournament. The DPWT and sponsors of that specific event decided that the women would play off shorter tees, that is their choice, and incidentally Linn Grant won that tournament 2 years in a row so was that a coincidence or was it actually set up unfairly in favour of the females? That's not a viewpoint or even a question that can be answered factually, but it's open to debate unless everyone plays off the same tees.

However when Michelle Wie, Annika Sorenstam etc etc chose to compete for prize money after receiving invitations to play on the PGA Tour, they had to tee it up like everyone else, equally in my view off the same tees. Open Championship qualifying is open to males and some females, again they will all compete off the same tees and females are not given a handicap to help them.

As an over 50 year old, I am now getting out-driven by up to around 50 yards by young county players, however as there is no separate CR based on age I choose to enter tournaments and compete against them on an equal footing off the same tees despite the obvious physical advantage mother nature gives them, that's my choice. When Bernhard Langer, Olazabal and Freddie Couples tee it up at Augusta each year, they are not given shots to compensate for their obvious lack of physical equality are they.

I should maybe make my point clearer, I believe that everyone who enters a gross/scratch tournament should tee off on the same tees with no shots given to anyone based on age, gender or anything else. If a female wants to enter a scratch tournament and she qualifies by right, then great I'm all for it. However she shouldn't then effectively be playing off a handicap of 2 in each round, it's scratch not handicap.

Whoever has decided that there is a blanket "need" or "must" does not share the same view as I, a fair-minded competitor, do.

 

[D-S]

Anneke and Michelle Wie etc. were playing in a Men’s competition for obvious reasons this is not a ‘fair’ competition as they are women, just as Rory or even a lowly ranked DPWT player playing in a women’s competition would not be fair.

If you can’t or won’t understand this initial concept then there is little point in going back and forth.

 

[Eesat 90210]

If you can’t or won’t understand this initial concept then there is little point in going back and forth.

Typical golf admin reply, ie "its just the way it is, I can't really say why so just shut up and go away".

So here's a question for you, not a trick question just a matter of view point:

If Lexie Thompson got through Open Final Qualifying, which she could well do, and pegged it up in the Open Championship, do you think she should be given shots each day to equal out the fact that for amateur golfers the CR is different for men and women? This could possibly give her let's say 3 shots per day, ie 12 for the tournament if she made the cut. That is exactly what happens in mixed scratch tournaments and what you support.

Simple yes or no question to which you cannot reply "it's a men's tournament so irrelevant" because it is actually open to male and female.

 

[D-S]

Typical golf admin reply, ie "its just the way it is, I can't really say why so just shut up and go away".

So here's a question for you, not a trick question just a matter of view point:

If Lexie Thompson got through Open Final Qualifying, which she could well do, and pegged it up in the Open Championship, do you think she should be given shots each day to equal out the fact that for amateur golfers the CR is different for men and women? This could possibly give her let's say 3 shots per day, ie 12 for the tournament if she made the cut. That is exactly what happens in mixed scratch tournaments and what you support.

Simple yes or no question to which you cannot reply "it's a men's tournament so irrelevant" because it is actually open to male and female.

See post #34, in particular the last sentence.

 

[Colin L]

Scratch is, of course, simply a point on a handicap scale which ranges from + something to -54. But no matter. The point is that the strokes given to equate one course rating with another where men and women play in the same scratch competition is not a handicap matter. It is a stroke allowance, an adjustment made to take into account the differences in Course Ratings, the difference between the standard score of a scratch male golfer and the standard score of a female golfer. On a course such as the white course at my own club, a scratch male player is expected to score 70 whereas a scratch woman is expected to score 75. There is nothing fair-minded about accepting that a woman playing to her expected score will never be closer to a man playing to his than 5 strokes, will never win.

To a great extent, it comes down to the unavoidable fact that men can hit a ball further.

We have lost some understanding in doing away with the term Standard Scratch Score.

 

[Neilds]

Typical golf admin reply, ie "its just the way it is, I can't really say why so just shut up and go away".

So here's a question for you, not a trick question just a matter of view point:

If Lexie Thompson got through Open Final Qualifying, which she could well do, and pegged it up in the Open Championship, do you think she should be given shots each day to equal out the fact that for amateur golfers the CR is different for men and women? This could possibly give her let's say 3 shots per day, ie 12 for the tournament if she made the cut. That is exactly what happens in mixed scratch tournaments and what you support.

Simple yes or no question to which you cannot reply "it's a men's tournament so irrelevant" because it is actually open to male and female.

No. It is a men's competition so play to men's rules.

 

[rulie]

It's all about the terms of the competition that are set by the Committee in charge.
I always thought of a "scratch" competition simply meaning no handicaps (or handicapping system) involved - everyone (regardless of gender) plays the same course and lowest gross score wins.

 

[D-S]

I would say there are men’s scratch competitions, women’s scratch competitions and mixed gender scratch competitions (in these you can also have a men’s division and a women’s division if you want or even age groups). You can also do the same for handicap golf.

Just like some other sports, men’s hockey, women’s hockey and mixed hockey.

It’s quite simple really.