Calculating shots in 4BBB Matchplay from 1st April 2024

Swango1980

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Perhaps the handicap system (and the managers of) are becoming far too reliant on "technology"? What about the players themselves managing their own scores? As someone said earlier, pretty soon I won't event have to go out and play, just sign in and the "system" will generate a score for me on that day!
On the Howdidido Forum today, I noticed one chap ask a question regarding pre-registration. I assume he was on Committee, as he indicated he had just been at an England Golf Workshop. At the workshop, EG said that too many players are not pre-registering their rounds. He checked at his club, and said this was happing there. He blamed the fact that it wasn't clear on the App what pre-registration was for, and so many members just didn't know it had to be done before teeing off. His solution was to request an improvement to the App, to make this clear to members.

I was a bit gobsmacked. What part of the "pre" do members not understand. And, have the club communicated to players what their responsibilities are and given good details about doing things like submitting GP scores?

So, there might be some truth in what you say. Are some clubs becoming so reliant on the tech, they are failing to do some of the basics like putting out general communication to members on how to use the tech in the first place, and why things need to be done in a certain way?
 

wjemather

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On the Howdidido Forum today, I noticed one chap ask a question regarding pre-registration. I assume he was on Committee, as he indicated he had just been at an England Golf Workshop. At the workshop, EG said that too many players are not pre-registering their rounds. He checked at his club, and said this was happing there. He blamed the fact that it wasn't clear on the App what pre-registration was for, and so many members just didn't know it had to be done before teeing off. His solution was to request an improvement to the App, to make this clear to members.

I was a bit gobsmacked. What part of the "pre" do members not understand. And, have the club communicated to players what their responsibilities are and given good details about doing things like submitting GP scores?

So, there might be some truth in what you say. Are some clubs becoming so reliant on the tech, they are failing to do some of the basics like putting out general communication to members on how to use the tech in the first place, and why things need to be done in a certain way?
I think you've slightly mis-understood what he's saying.
He's saying that there are some who are not aware that they have to pre-register if they want to submit a gp score, not that there are some who are submitting scores without pre-registering.
Sounds like he'll also be needing the hdid app to generate an alert when players arrive at the golf club, otherwise the people he's talking about won't be launching the app to read his requested message.
 

DeanoMK

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On the Howdidido Forum today, I noticed one chap ask a question regarding pre-registration. I assume he was on Committee, as he indicated he had just been at an England Golf Workshop. At the workshop, EG said that too many players are not pre-registering their rounds. He checked at his club, and said this was happing there. He blamed the fact that it wasn't clear on the App what pre-registration was for, and so many members just didn't know it had to be done before teeing off. His solution was to request an improvement to the App, to make this clear to members.

I was a bit gobsmacked. What part of the "pre" do members not understand. And, have the club communicated to players what their responsibilities are and given good details about doing things like submitting GP scores?

So, there might be some truth in what you say. Are some clubs becoming so reliant on the tech, they are failing to do some of the basics like putting out general communication to members on how to use the tech in the first place, and why things need to be done in a certain way?
When I'm submitting a GP score, I just launch the EG app and create a scorecard, surely this is pre-registering or are you saying that I should be going into the pro to tell them first?
 

Swango1980

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When I'm submitting a GP score, I just launch the EG app and create a scorecard, surely this is pre-registering or are you saying that I should be going into the pro to tell them first?
Not at all. When you create the scorecard on MyEG you are pre-registering at that time. Can't remember it word for word, but when you create a score, there is a message I think that indicates you are pre-registering for a score.

But, England Golf had indicated at the meeting that many golfers were not pre-registering before their round, and doing so after they played. Presumably, the person who brought this up, was specific to golfers using the howdidido App, rather than MyEG. We've heard stories in these forums, of golfers potentially pre-registering during or after their round, and then entering their score when the App allows them to (I think there is a 2 hour delay, between registering and being able to enter scores on howdidido)
 

rudebhoy

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Can someone provide an official link to 4bbb handicap allowance calculation?

Background : We played a knockout yesterday. Opponents had CH of 11 and 14 vs our 21 and 23.

I calculated that their high player got 3 shots, while we got 9 and 10, and thought we had agreed that on the first tee (that’s what I wrote on my card). When we played the SI 9 hole, their low player got a 4 while ours got a 5. I said “that’s a half, only for them to say they had won the hole as our low player was only due 8 shots.

It got a bit awkward. They seemed more sure than we did, so we eventually let them have the hole, but it left a bit of a bad taste.

Their argument was our low player got 90% of his CH, so 19 less their low player’s 11 = 8, while our argument was he got 90% of the difference so 21-11=10 x 90%, ie 9.

Who was correct?

(I’m not intending taking it any further if we are right, but we have another knockout next week and want to be 100% clear before we play that.)
 

Voyager EMH

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That is out of date since 1st April.

Fourball matchplay "allowance" is 100% (CH rounded to whole number) and then strokes received is 90% of the difference between 100% course handicaps.
 
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Swango1980

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Can someone provide an official link to 4bbb handicap allowance calculation?

Background : We played a knockout yesterday. Opponents had CH of 11 and 14 vs our 21 and 23.

I calculated that their high player got 3 shots, while we got 9 and 10, and thought we had agreed that on the first tee (that’s what I wrote on my card). When we played the SI 9 hole, their low player got a 4 while ours got a 5. I said “that’s a half, only for them to say they had won the hole as our low player was only due 8 shots.

It got a bit awkward. They seemed more sure than we did, so we eventually let them have the hole, but it left a bit of a bad taste.

Their argument was our low player got 90% of his CH, so 19 less their low player’s 11 = 8, while our argument was he got 90% of the difference so 21-11=10 x 90%, ie 9.

Who was correct?

(I’m not intending taking it any further if we are right, but we have another knockout next week and want to be 100% clear before we play that.)
Their methodology was completely wrong, pre or post the changes in April. If I read right, they felt their low player got 100% of their CH, while all other players got 90% of theirs. Weird logic. In an extreme case if a low player was off 16, do they thing a 17 handicapper would then be off 15, and the low handicappers then gets a shot??????? :)

Also, does your highest handicapper not get 11 shots, rather than 10? The full difference is 12, so 90% of that is 11
 

rudebhoy

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Their methodology was completely wrong, pre or post the changes in April. If I read right, they felt their low player got 100% of their CH, while all other players got 90% of theirs. Weird logic. In an extreme case if a low player was off 16, do they thing a 17 handicapper would then be off 15, and the low handicappers then gets a shot??????? :)

Also, does your highest handicapper not get 11 shots, rather than 10? The full difference is 12, so 90% of that is 11
Yes, it should have been 11, not 10.

It’s a bit galling as both errors had significant impacts on the outcome - we would have been 1 up with 5 to play as opposed to 1 down (we went on to lose).
 

tobybarker

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Galling, but it's down to you as well to be clear on the rules. I guess it was a hard lesson. Not obvious why the 90 percent thing is required, to me at any rate. But there were are
 

IanMcC

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This is from page 46 of the Guidance to the Rules of Handicapping document.

The full playing handicap is calculated (PH above) and then strokes received are calculated based from the lowest PH (Megan) and 90% of the differences (Strokes Received). So for Liam, the difference is 12 – 2 = 10, then 90% of that difference (i.e. 9)
 

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LizAig

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Can someone provide an official link to 4bbb handicap allowance calculation?

Background : We played a knockout yesterday. Opponents had CH of 11 and 14 vs our 21 and 23.

I calculated that their high player got 3 shots, while we got 9 and 10, and thought we had agreed that on the first tee (that’s what I wrote on my card). When we played the SI 9 hole, their low player got a 4 while ours got a 5. I said “that’s a half, only for them to say they had won the hole as our low player was only due 8 shots.

It got a bit awkward. They seemed more sure than we did, so we eventually let them have the hole, but it left a bit of a bad taste.

Their argument was our low player got 90% of his CH, so 19 less their low player’s 11 = 8, while our argument was he got 90% of the difference so 21-11=10 x 90%, ie 9.

Who was correct?

(I’m not intending taking it any further if we are right, but we have another knockout next week and want to be 100% clear before we play that.)
Doesn’t Appendix C cover it? https://www.randa.org/en/roh/appendices/appendix-c

IMG_0282.png
 

Swango1980

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Galling, but it's down to you as well to be clear on the rules. I guess it was a hard lesson. Not obvious why the 90 percent thing is required, to me at any rate. But there were are
I guess the proper answer is that, simply put, it is based on the analysis of a massive amount of scores. And, if 90% was not applied, the higher handicappers would be at a significant advantage.

As an explanation, if it is 1 v 1 you are on your own. 100% is more reasonable, because if the higher handicapper messes up, there is nobody to potentially bail them out.

If 2v2, the higher handicapper can mess up, but still have a partner to back them up. Sure, the lower handicappers in another team also have a partner. However, as higher handicappers are more likely to mess up more often, they can theoretically be bailed out more often.

I suppose, theoretically, if you kept increasing team sizes, the % would have to get lower and lower. To the point, if you had 1000 v 1000, the handicap adjustment would probably have to be pretty close to 0%, because at least one of the higher handicappers will probably still get a birdie (or better).
 
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