Changes to WHS in April 2024

[mikejohnchapman]

I see EG have put out the dates for their educational workshops. For us down here it is a bit little and a bit late. We have 135 clubs in the South West (Glos, Devon, Cornwall and Somerset - I am not including Wilts and Dorset as they may attend another one), however there is only one workshop and that is in the very east of the region (Bristol) so the odds of getting more than half the clubs there is very low indeed. When Glos ran 4 roadshows last year, 2 on zoom and one north and one south we only reached about two thirds of the clubs.
Also the workshop is 6 weeks before implementation so little time for this reps that can attend to get the message through to their members.
Last year when it was just an update, all counties were tasked with putting on a series of educational workshops and measured on them, this year when there are a few changes it's a lot less - odd.

Do you have the dates / booking details for the South please?

 

[D-S]

Do you have the dates / booking details for the South please?

 

[D-S]

Interesting The NCG Podcast today with James Luke (Head of Handicapping at EG) explaining the changes. Basically spelling out all the news we know but some interesting commentary on CR-Par and how the 4BB will work as well as saying boards aren’t really needed any more.

 

[wjemather]

The R&A announced changes to PCC in August 22, what's not clear is whether these changes are in addition to those or whether it's simply an admin change to include it in the updated Rules of Handicapping document.

Correct the changes to CR-Par announced by EG simply brings us in line with the current Rules if Handicappng.

If it weren't the same PCC update adopted already, it would have been included in the list of GB&I updates for 2024 announced this past week.

 

[Backsticks]

For those tuned into the detail, with some elements already adopted here, and us adopting some elements already in vigour elsewhere, and some element being adopted universally, could we say that on a world scale, the dominant note of the 2024 WHS revisions is one of convergence ?

 

[wjemather]

For those tuned into the detail, with some elements already adopted here, and us adopting some elements already in vigour elsewhere, and some element being adopted universally, could we say that on a world scale, the dominant note of the 2024 WHS revisions is one of convergence ?

That is certainly one of the main aims of the 2024 update.

 

[D-S]

That is certainly one of the main aims of the 2024 update.

It’s certainly one of the themes of James Luke’s interview in the podcast, as well as seemingly regretting not introducing CR-Par at the inception of WHS.

 

[Backsticks]

Correct, the PCC update was adopted in GB&I earlier this year.

4BBB & CR-Par are only changes for GB&I; they aren't global changes to WHS - they are simply options that GB&I hadn't originally chosen.

4BBB change certainly looks one for everyone to ignore. I dont doubt they have the statistics to back up that what they are proposing works in theory. But its too complex to bother with. The handicap boffins are getting as detached from reality as the rules czars. I dont think either realises that 99.9999% of golfers can be bothered with such arcana. We just want to play the game.

 

[IanMcC]

4BBB change certainly looks one for everyone to ignore. I dont doubt they have the statistics to back up that what they are proposing works in theory. But its too complex to bother with. The handicap boffins are getting as detached from reality as the rules czars. I dont think either realises that 99.9999% of golfers can be bothered with such arcana. We just want to play the game.

We have an early season 4BBB Board comp. If allowed, I shall be setting it up as a non-qualifier.

 

[2blue]

4BBB change certainly looks one for everyone to ignore. I dont doubt they have the statistics to back up that what they are proposing works in theory. But its too complex to bother with. The handicap boffins are getting as detached from reality as the rules czars. I dont think either realises that 99.9999% of golfers can be bothered with such arcana. We just want to play the game.

I think you are way, way off track here as it's one of the areas that players have raised & folk have long been requesting some action in this area. Me & my partner have very recently have been moved up 3 places in a Yorkshire Union Comp at Bradford as 3 of the top 9 pairs couldn't satisfy a very simple requirement of Q Comps including the winning pairs with 46pts (5 better than us). There has to be a very big wake-up call to be made to such golfers as they really are attempting to cheat whenever they can. The idea that golf is an "Honourable Game" is long gone before WHS kicked in. Clubs now have lots of ways of trying to protect the game's integrity. Get in there!!!

 

[doublebogey7]

4BBB change certainly looks one for everyone to ignore. I dont doubt they have the statistics to back up that what they are proposing works in theory. But its too complex to bother with. The handicap boffins are getting as detached from reality as the rules czars. I dont think either realises that 99.9999% of golfers can be bothered with such arcana. We just want to play the game.

What is complex from the players point of view, simply enter your 4 Ball score into the ISV as yopu would normally do, EG will do the rest.

4 Ball scores are also where, I as a memeber of the HC, get the most grieve from members. So this is a good change from my point of view and I should hope from our members, although I would have liked to seen them go further.

 

[Swango1980]

I think you are way, way off track here as it's one of the areas that players have raised & folk have long been requesting some action in this area. Me & my partner have very recently have been moved up 3 places in a Yorkshire Union Comp at Bradford as 3 of the top 9 pairs couldn't satisfy a very simple requirement of Q Comps including the winning pairs with 46pts (5 better than us). There has to be a very big wake-up call to be made to such golfers as they really are attempting to cheat whenever they can. The idea that golf is an "Honourable Game" is long gone before WHS kicked in. Clubs now have lots of ways of trying to protect the game's integrity. Get in there!!!

I'd have prepares a system that officially logs 4BBB scores of players, linked to their handicap record. If any players look to perform exceedingly well in those events then it would be easy for handicap secretaries and competition secretaries to be made aware. They could then investigate and act on the players handicap.

Or even just ensure that both players enter proper scores for every hole, and look for patterns where they may "cheat" and put a blob every time their partner scores?

However, the methodology they are going to use seems like it could easily provide flaws in too many individual cases. It could come up with very different scores that a player would have had my making up a lot of hole scores. And if players have a day or 2 in the sun, they'll get a cut, but it will ignore many more rounds where they just play average or poor.

 

[wjemather]

4BBB change certainly looks one for everyone to ignore. I dont doubt they have the statistics to back up that what they are proposing works in theory. But its too complex to bother with. The handicap boffins are getting as detached from reality as the rules czars. I dont think either realises that 99.9999% of golfers can be bothered with such arcana. We just want to play the game.

Golfers don't need to do anything other than play golf, and record and certify scores, and enter them on the system. There isn't anything complex about that.

We have an early season 4BBB Board comp. If allowed, I shall be setting it up as a non-qualifier.

Union affiliated cubs do not have the authority to choose which parts of the rules of handicapping and union guidance to follow, and which to ignore.

 

[rulefan]

I'd have prepares a system that officially logs 4BBB scores of players, linked to their handicap record. If any players look to perform exceedingly well in those events then it would be easy for handicap secretaries and competition secretaries to be made aware. They could then investigate and act on the players handicap.

Or even just ensure that both players enter proper scores for every hole, and look for patterns where they may "cheat" and put a blob every time their partner scores?

However, the methodology they are going to use seems like it could easily provide flaws in too many individual cases. It could come up with very different scores that a player would have had my making up a lot of hole scores. And if players have a day or 2 in the sun, they'll get a cut, but it will ignore many more rounds where they just play average or poor.

Don't you think their marker(s) would spot such a ploy?

 

[Swango1980]

Don't you think their marker(s) would spot such a ploy?

No, not necessarily. Or not bothered enough to make a formal complaint to Committee. Especially if the 4 of them may be pals anyway.

If we had 100% faith markers would always highlight any dodgy behaviour, we'd probably have few bandits anyway. At elite amateur level, for example, England Golf probably would not have needed to put extra entry conditions on to low handicappers as to what qualifies for entry, and how many GP rounds are on their record.

 

[D-S]

We have an early season 4BBB Board comp. If allowed, I shall be setting it up as a non-qualifier.

If the course is qualifying and it gets won with a score of 45 points and one of the players doesn’t get cut (if they have fulfilled the criteria), I can imagine a lot of the field questioning the committee as to why they have decided to ignore EG regulation. This new feature of WHS will be welcomed by the vast majority of players and clubs who decide t disregard the policy will be open to suspicion.

 

[rulefan]

At elite amateur level, for example, England Golf probably would not have needed to put extra entry conditions on to low handicappers as to what qualifies for entry, and how many GP rounds are on their record.

EG introduced that measure to keep entries restricted to proven low cappers. They have to show a recent and consistent low handicap performance. If the specified field size is greater than the number of entrants providing their cap is low enough they would get in regardless of the new elimination qualifications. This was not about keeping sandbaggers out.

 

[rulefan]

If the course is qualifying and it gets won with a score of 45 points and one of the players doesn’t get cut (if they have fulfilled the criteria), I can imagine a lot of the field questioning the committee as to why they have decided to ignore EG regulation. This new feature of WHS will be welcomed by the vast majority of players and clubs who decide t disregard the policy will be open to suspicion.

Over the years EG and Counties have been involved in many disciplinary cases involving Open 4BBB outlandish scores by sandbaggers.

 

[D-S]

EG introduced that measure to keep entries restricted to proven low cappers. They have to show a recent and consistent low handicap performance. If the specified field size is greater than the number of entrants providing their cap is low enough they would get in regardless of the new elimination qualifications. This was not about keeping sandbaggers out.

They (James Crampton) did state that the main purpose and reasoning behind the move was to weed out entrants who were manipulating their handicaps to a very low level in order to gain entry to elite tournaments - he cited many examples of this happening.

 

[D-S]

Over the years EG and Counties have been involved in many disciplinary cases involving Open 4BBB outlandish scores by sandbaggers.

Obviously one of the reasons behind the new policy - again I would suggest that a committee would do well not to ignore it.