New women's tees

[Arthur Wedge]

You're a guy interested in multiple sports. I had the impression you might have thought this topic through with your 'football head' on. So it seemed appropriate

Maybe you think we're looking at a small set because a more playable tee option doesn't currently exist in many clubs and ppl aren't joining after trying out the game and constantly needing 1 or 2 over par just to get to the green?
Of course we're not talking about 10 or 15 tee options for every increment players can drive the ball but if the article is to be believed then many clubs (maybe not yours) need a shorter tee option

Thanks to forumers adding their course website in their signatures I can see that many clubs don't in fact have a 4th (or 5th) measured shorter course in the range the article refers to
Maybe you'd get more members of a profile that doesn't fit into 99% of current members with such a layout (maybe you don't want/need them but that's a separate matter)

So what you’re saying is make the game easier to attract more people

I can’t recall too many people saying they aren’t going to take up the sport or join the club because they can’t reach all the par 4s in regulation

How far down do we dumb courses down just protect peoples egos

There are many courses out there that have par 4’s which I can’t reach in two -it’s then about maximising my game to give myself the best chance of making par on that hole

Golf is hard - a handicap helps make things a bit easier for some

What we could do is have 6 or 7 tees and then people pick the ones they think they can hit the green in regulation and then also remove handicaps and have everyone off scratch

 

[Mel Smooth]

So what you’re saying is make the game easier to attract more people

I can’t recall too many people saying they aren’t going to take up the sport or join the club because they can’t reach all the par 4s in regulation

How far down do we dumb courses down just protect peoples egos

There are many courses out there that have par 4’s which I can’t reach in two -it’s then about maximising my game to give myself the best chance of making par on that hole

Golf is hard - a handicap helps make things a bit easier for some

What we could do is have 6 or 7 tees and then people pick the ones they think they can hit the green in regulation and then also remove handicaps and have everyone off scratch

That is such a bad take.

All golf clubs should be endeavouring to provide facilities that attract new people to the game - whether that be easier tees, or easier short courses where possible.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

That is such a bad take.

All golf clubs should be endeavouring to provide facilities that attract new people to the game - whether that be easier tees, or easier short courses where possible.

And many clubs do - especially tees for junior new golfers

But it’s a hard game - many of us picked up the sport and played the courses appropriate to our level until we improved

Not every club can have academy courses , or being able to afford to build shorter tees as well as not fitting in with the way the course has been designed

Golf doesn’t seem to be doing too bad attracting people to the sport right now - without the need to make it easier

 

[wjemather]

Having shorter tees has got absolutely nothing to so with reaching greens in regulation, making the game easier or dumbing it down. It's simply about making courses playable and enjoyable for everyone, without having (near) impossible carries off the tee for short hitters (which includes younger juniors - the future of the game), and enabling them to maintain a handicap and be competitive (if they wish). It also doesn't require any great expenditure; many clubs have managed to introduce more forward tees by placing permanent distance markers close to the start of fairways or cutting out small areas in the rough.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

That is such a bad take.

All golf clubs should be endeavouring to provide facilities that attract new people to the game - whether that be easier tees, or easier short courses where possible.

Totally agree. No idea what this fixation about dumbing down is about

That is why people should use the corresponding tees for their age and ability. You wouldn't put a senior golfer just taking the game up off the whites would you. Let them play off the blues or even the reds. Doesn't mean they'll hit the greens in two even from there. Handicaps are designed to make it an even (or more even) playing field. When I played Forest of Arden in the GM Centenary no way could I hit 420+ par 4's in two so I laid up on them and all par 5's and trusted my skills from 100 yards. Came second losing on back 6 countback so didn't do too badly

 

[Slab]

So what you’re saying is make the game easier to attract more people

I can’t recall too many people saying they aren’t going to take up the sport or join the club because they can’t reach all the par 4s in regulation

How far down do we dumb courses down just protect peoples egos

There are many courses out there that have par 4’s which I can’t reach in two -it’s then about maximising my game to give myself the best chance of making par on that hole

Golf is hard - a handicap helps make things a bit easier for some

What we could do is have 6 or 7 tees and then people pick the ones they think they can hit the green in regulation and then also remove handicaps and have everyone off scratch

You’re maybe just making statements I suspect without even considering if they could be looked at another way

“ So what you’re saying is make the game easier to attract more people” - No what I’m saying is make the game more enjoyable to attract more people {insert shrug shoulder trademark}
“ I can’t recall too many people saying they aren’t going to take up the sport or join the club because they can’t reach all the par 4s in regulation” - Are you really having lots of conversations with this demographic about this. I’m gonna say nah
“How far down do we dumb courses down just protect peoples egos” - It’s not their egos for goodness sake, its their experience & enjoyment of the game & even a tiny wee sense of achievement (even if that achievement is meaningless on your own ability scale) & its not dumbing down, did you even read the article
“Golf is hard - a handicap helps make things a bit easier for some” - Handicaps are only relevant for competition golf. Most rounds played are not comps. A player is just playing against the course & themselves. You’re saying their only chance to experience anything close to what you experience every week is… get better/hit it longer or suck it up! Marvellous way to grow the game

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You’re maybe just making statements I suspect without even considering if they could be looked at another way

“ So what you’re saying is make the game easier to attract more people” - No what I’m saying is make the game more enjoyable to attract more people {insert shrug shoulder trademark}
“ I can’t recall too many people saying they aren’t going to take up the sport or join the club because they can’t reach all the par 4s in regulation” - Are you really having lots of conversations with this demographic about this. I’m gonna say nah
“How far down do we dumb courses down just protect peoples egos” - It’s not their egos for goodness sake, its their experience & enjoyment of the game & even a tiny wee sense of achievement (even if that achievement is meaningless on your own ability scale) & its not dumbing down, did you even read the article
“Golf is hard - a handicap helps make things a bit easier for some” - Handicaps are only relevant for competition golf. Most rounds played are not comps. A player is just playing against the course & themselves. You’re saying their only chance to experience anything close to what you experience every week is… get better/hit it longer or suck it up! Marvellous way to grow the game

Making it more “attractive” by making it easier , making it easier for people to get onto a green on regulation

How big is this “demographic” that don’t play golf because they can’t get to greens in regulation - what numbers are you talking about here

Of course it’s about egos - someone is expecting their enjoyment to be based on how they play the course - and if playing their course doesn’t meet their expectations then they won’t enjoy it , maybe they have expectations that aren’t realistic to their ability

In cricket maybe we all want to be able to hit a bowler for 6 - but he is bowling too fast , maybe we should ask him to slow down so that we can get more enjoyment out of it or we learn to play it a bit better

And handicaps are relevant through social and competition golf

As I said - if we build shorter tees to allow even the shortest hitter to reach every green in regulation shall we remove the handicaps then

if a course is designed to ensure everyone can reach a green in regulation how many sets of tees need to be built ? How many tees should a course have to cover it’s members

And if handicaps don’t matter for anything outside competition golf then why do clubs need their forward tees rated ?

 

[IanM]

There's no point in any club setting up a course so that a section of the membership can't enjoy playing it.

That goes for everyone.

Women tend to be more sensible than men in heading to the right tees. Assuming those tees are provided, which most courses seem to do now.

 

[Slab]

Making it more “attractive” by making it easier , making it easier for people to get onto a green on regulation

How big is this “demographic” that don’t play golf because they can’t get to greens in regulation - what numbers are you talking about here

Of course it’s about egos - someone is expecting their enjoyment to be based on how they play the course - and if playing their course doesn’t meet their expectations then they won’t enjoy it , maybe they have expectations that aren’t realistic to their ability

In cricket maybe we all want to be able to hit a bowler for 6 - but he is bowling too fast , maybe we should ask him to slow down so that we can get more enjoyment out of it or we learn to play it a bit better

And handicaps are relevant through social and competition golf

As I said - if we build shorter tees to allow even the shortest hitter to reach every green in regulation shall we remove the handicaps then

if a course is designed to ensure everyone can reach a green in regulation how many sets of tees need to be built ? How many tees should a course have to cover it’s members

And if handicaps don’t matter for anything outside competition golf then why do clubs need their forward tees rated ?

You’re maybe just making statements I suspect without even considering if they could be looked at another way

I'm convinced now that you're just doing it on purpose to whatever end you have in mind. Crack on

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Making it more “attractive” by making it easier , making it easier for people to get onto a green on regulation

How big is this “demographic” that don’t play golf because they can’t get to greens in regulation - what numbers are you talking about here

Of course it’s about egos - someone is expecting their enjoyment to be based on how they play the course - and if playing their course doesn’t meet their expectations then they won’t enjoy it , maybe they have expectations that aren’t realistic to their ability

In cricket maybe we all want to be able to hit a bowler for 6 - but he is bowling too fast , maybe we should ask him to slow down so that we can get more enjoyment out of it or we learn to play it a bit better

And handicaps are relevant through social and competition golf

As I said - if we build shorter tees to allow even the shortest hitter to reach every green in regulation shall we remove the handicaps then

if a course is designed to ensure everyone can reach a green in regulation how many sets of tees need to be built ? How many tees should a course have to cover it’s members

And if handicaps don’t matter for anything outside competition golf then why do clubs need their forward tees rated ?

With the greatest respect, this is another thread that you appear to be arguing for the sake of it. Numerous other people have given you many reasons against your points but you keep pushing them.

Where does cricket come into this - very tenuous
Who said anything about building tees - most clubs already have red (ladies but forward if men want to use them) and blue for seniors and juniors
No-one has said anything about hitting GIR's being mandatory so why build more tees
Tees need to be slope rated so people can play with handicaps if they desire.
It really seems an obtuse argument you are presenting

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I'm convinced now that you're just doing it on purpose to whatever end you have in mind. Crack on

It’s very simple

Every course I have played on this year has a minimum of 4 sets of tee

Comps/Blacks/whites

Yellows/tee of the day etc

Reds/Ladies

And

Forward tees/blues


For most the white, red and yellow are rated for all and are on a score card

The blues won’t be but some still have a junior scorecard

Most of the blues will be tee markers in appropriate places on the fairway

They won’t build permanent tees for multiple reasons - cost , practicality being too keys ones especially on older courses where the design didn’t consider the forward tees

Most clubs have the facilities for people to play the short course - I see junior, seniors and ladies playing it

It’s already there and even then there is nothing stopping anyone from teeing up closing to the green when they are just having some fun - it’s not going to harm anyone

When people have this articles when they are asking for permanent tees to be built closer don’t ever consider the cost and practicality aspect of doing it

If playing social golf etc you can do whatever you want , you aren’t forced to play of the back tees

 

[Arthur Wedge]

To help those with hard of reading some extracts from the article

“

· Reaching the green complex in regulation the majority of the time”


“This isn’t just about sticking discs further down each hole on the fairway in the hope a few beginners or juniors might use them. This is science and creating a properly built tee experiencewhich is a scaled version of the courses that the architect wanted you to play. Incorporating all the same experiences/hazards and really playing golf, just with less yards involved.”

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Which gender(s) are the four courses rated for? Each card only shows one rating.

Personally I don't think the genders should have been treated differently in processing handicaps, A female shooting 80 of 'Yellows' should have the same handicap as a male shooting 80 of the same tees.

 

[rulefan]

Personally I don't think the genders should have been treated differently in processing handicaps, A female shooting 80 of 'Yellows' should have the same handicap as a male shooting 80 of the same tees.

Do you mean 80 gross or net?

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Do you mean 80 gross or net?

80 gross. The same gross scores should not have different Stroke Differentials from the same tees for Female & Male golfers.
why should a Male have an handicap index of say 8 when a female scoring the exact same scores have a index of 6

 

[wjemather]

80 gross. The same gross scores should not have different Stroke Differentials from the same tees for Female & Male golfers.
why should a Male have an handicap index of say 8 when a female scoring the exact same scores have a index of 6

Not sure many would be happy with the resultant extremes of the handicap scale that a single gender system would necessitate. Depending on where 0 is located, there would either be a massive increase in plus handicap men or a big reduction in the number of plus handicap women, and the maximum handicap would need to be increased significantly above 60. And men and women of similar golfing skill would not have remotely similar handicaps.

 

[rulefan]

80 gross. The same gross scores should not have different Stroke Differentials from the same tees for Female & Male golfers.
why should a Male have an handicap index of say 8 when a female scoring the exact same scores have a index of 6

Given the same level of accuracy and consistency, do you believe a scratch female hitting first two strokes 210/190 would have better all-round game than a male hitting 250/220?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Given the same level of accuracy and consistency, do you believe a scratch female hitting first two strokes 210/190 would have better all-round game than a male hitting 250/220?

If they are getting the same score on the hole does it matter if one hits it further ?

whats the difference between a male who hits it 210 and someone who hits it 250 but is the same handicap

 

[rosecott]

Surely the Handicap will balance it out

I often hear “can’t reach the par 4 in two” - but their handicap gives them a shot on that hole so it’s surely about what someone can reach a green in “net”

If someone has a handicap of 18 then they shouldn’t be reaching any green in regulation

As for ladies tees etc - a lot of the issues at most golf clubs are the ladies themselves - ours refuse to allow men or juniors to play off “their” tees and they have no interest in using the blue forward tees or the yellows or whites

Refuse?

Do you not have a committee to discuss and decide on such issues?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Refuse?

Do you not have a committee to discuss and decide on such issues?

We do - including the ladies on the committee and they are very clear that it’s their tees