New women's tees

[Steve Wilkes]

Not sure many would be happy with the resultant extremes of the handicap scale that a single gender system would necessitate. Depending on where 0 is located, there would either be a massive increase in plus handicap men or a big reduction in the number of plus handicap women, and the maximum handicap would need to be increased significantly above 60. And men and women of similar golfing skill would not have remotely similar handicaps.

I agree , there maybe a increase in women handicaps above 54, The 3 cards I have which have a rating for men & women from the same tees would mean a 54 SD for women would equate to 61 to 63 for the men, so there may need to be an increase of max to 64 for women.
I also agree that if a male and female are both shooting 80, the female would probably have a better skill factor, rather than a strength factor.
but why they can't be both 8 handicap, as it's surely about the score on the bottom of the scorecard. that's like me, I'm a 5 handicap but only drive 220 yards and hit a 6 iron 140, so should I say I'm really a 3 handicap cause I hit like a women .

The whole Male / Female handicap thing is not a big issue for me WJ and I see the reasons behind it.

 

[nickjdavis]

Why should a course build a brand new tee so that 70 year Betty can reach a green in regulation

So that Betty can relive the joy that she might once have had by shooting a gross par...or even rolling in a 20 footer for birdie.

It is this sort of "challenge" or "reward" that I think is the intention of the article.

Yes Betty might only get 16 shots off these new forward tees and is no more competitive than she used to be off 24 off the longer tees...but she gets to experience something she never would if playing off longer tees, where she hasn't a hope of hitting the greens in regulation.

This is about the soul of the game, those moments of sheer joy that arise from time to time. The chance of a hole in one, holing out with an approach shot, rolling in a long putt for birdie.

It's not about competing on an even keel (the handicaps take care of that)...it's about giving players the opportunity to have similar experiences out on the course.

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

Women's tees just a few yards straight out in front of the whites often make no sense.

On certain holes,
the gentleman hits his 230 yard drive,
the lady hits her 195 yard drive,
and then they both have a 185 yard second shot.

Women's tees should be offset at an angle so they can play the hole in a way that makes sense.

 

[Mel Smooth]

Women's tees just a few yards straight out in front of the whites often make no sense.

On certain holes,
the gentleman hits his 230 yard drive,
the lady hits her 195 yard drive,
and then they both have a 185 yard second shot.

Women's tees should be offset at an angle so they can play the hole in a way that makes sense.

I agree with this - smacks of lazy design, or a lack of budget. I think we have two holes where the red tees are an extension of the yellow and whites - those come on the 5th and 8th holes. Other than that, every forward tee is either well forward of the yellows/whites, offset to provide a different angle, or a combination of both.

 

[Hank]

After a couple of whinges about articles on the GM front page, I thought this article was thought provoking and interesting. Though the headline doesn't do it justice.

'It’s Important That We Stop Confusing Distance With Ability' - Is This Model The Answer To A Fairer Golf Experience?

Meet the women who are on a mission to bring to life their vision that will create a better golf experience for everyone

www.golfmonthly.com

We recently seem to have fewer women on the forum possibly put of by the bickering (mine included)
However this seems to be promoting the possibility of much shorter tees for women golfers.
Now I know very well that a few women are very long hitters and I am not for a moment suggesting that they should be restricted to shorter tees but there are a fairly large proportion of the population for whom the current tees on offer are quite simply too long..

Both my wife and myself are mid 60's and whereas there are a couple of the par 4's played off the usual tees that I will only reach in two with very dry fairways and a decent wind behind me which is not the prevailing one, there is not a single par 4 on the course which my wife can comfortably reach in regulation. Should we be investing in much shorter tees to encourage more women into the game?

Yes in an ideal world but who finances these changes? Most clubs couldn't afford to do it.

The maximum handicap allowance has been increased by 50% to help more women into the game.

A few weeks ago i played at Jedburgh GC and we were joined by a local lady who had a really good tidy swing, played some really good stuff off the reds. I reckon had she played off the whites she would've been 30yards behind us every hole except par 3's.

 

[Parsaregood]

Going the other way I find many inland courses in my area too short - even off white tees. If I hit driver on lots of par 4’s I will only be hitting a wedge or some form of gap wedge or less in. This becomes boring and monotonous after a while. There’s certain courses I just won’t play because I find them boring for this reason. Absolutely no variety. There are very few championship worthy inland courses in the uk. All are standard members clubs usually 6000-6400 yards.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Going the other way I find many inland courses in my area too short - even off white tees. If I hit driver on lots of par 4’s I will only be hitting a wedge or some form of gap wedge or less in. This becomes boring and monotonous after a while. There’s certain courses I just won’t play because I find them boring for this reason. Absolutely no variety. There are very few championship worthy inland courses in the uk. All are standard members clubs usually 6000-6400 yards.

What's your handicap and how far are you hitting it

 

[Parsaregood]

I am plus 2, I carry a driver around 280 through the air strike depending. A full pw I carry 141 and a 7 iron I carry 177 for reference. These are all averages. I have access to a launch monitor whenever I want as I own one

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I am plus 2, I carry a driver around 280 through the air strike depending. A full pw I carry 141 and a 7 iron I carry 177 for reference

What is the length of your own course. I assume it isn't inland?

 

[Parsaregood]

I am member of both inland and a links course, I’m not actually 100% sure on total length of the inland it is around 6200 yards I think and the links can be pushed over 7000 yards. I pretty much only use the inland course to practice on because I don’t find it very interesting to play in all honesty

 

[Backache]

Going the other way I find many inland courses in my area too short - even off white tees. If I hit driver on lots of par 4’s I will only be hitting a wedge or some form of gap wedge or less in. This becomes boring and monotonous after a while. There’s certain courses I just won’t play because I find them boring for this reason. Absolutely no variety. There are very few championship worthy inland courses in the uk. All are standard members clubs usually 6000-6400 yards.

The majority of golf clubs just don't have the space to significantly lengthen.
I guess you'll have to look for the ones that are long enough.

 

[chico]

We left our last club as my wife felt they put no thought into the women's tees. Most days the reds were just next to the yellows which made it a bit of a slog for her.

 

[Parsaregood]

The majority of golf clubs just don't have the space to significantly lengthen.
I guess you'll have to look for the ones that are long enough.

I thought golf courses should be enjoyable for everyone? Lots of courses do actually have space just not the desire or willingness to allocate funds to improve the courses in a meaningful way. Lots of members would rather funds were spent on superficial things

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I thought golf courses should be enjoyable for everyone? Lots of courses do actually have space just not the desire or willingness to allocate funds to improve the courses in a meaningful way. Lots of members would rather funds were spent on superficial things

We still have tee boxes in place albeit overgrown at the moment on several holes to extend them but have never bothered. Our 13th is already around 180 yards and the new box would make it around 215 yards. With two other par 3's already over 200 yards why add another?

 

[Backache]

I thought golf courses should be enjoyable for everyone? Lots of courses do actually have space just not the desire or willingness to allocate funds to improve the courses in a meaningful way. Lots of members would rather funds were spent on superficial things

Well I guess it depends on the course, but ours certainly does not have extra space.
I certainly agree that golf should endeavour to be enjoyable for all it's members which is why I think the article deserves serious consideration.
I'm not sure which superficial things members would rather have their funds spent on, and it certainly sounds like in your case you would do well to seek out longer courses to play.

 

[Parsaregood]

We still have tee boxes in place albeit overgrown at the moment on several holes to extend them but have never bothered. Our 13th is already around 180 yards and the new box would make it around 215 yards. With two other par 3's already over 200 yards why add another?

Par 3’s are the wrong holes to lengthen especially if there are an abundance of par 4’s of similar length that mean anybody who hits the ball a decent distance is hitting a wedge in. The best par 3’s are all under 200 yards. Length isn’t everything either, hole design can be considered although there is always reluctance from older golfers etc to add in areas of heavy rough, new bunkering or a forced carry. Simply because most older/women/higher handicap’s tend to bounce balls onto the green than fly them. The thing that separates a great course from an average to good one is that the great courses are a fun challenge for everyone. Too many courses in the uk were designed long ago and haven’t changed much since

 

[nickjdavis]

Whisper it quietly, but just for the hell of it I played off our Red tees yesterday. They have been recently rated for men (as have the yellow tees for ladies) so I saw no harm in seeing what life was like off the reds.

To put it into context, for men, the comparison between the three tees are...

Tees	Yards	Par	CR	Slope
White	5844	70	69.0	120
Yellow	5560	70	67.7	118
Red	5112	70	64.5	115

Off my 9.6 index I get 9,8 and 4 shots respectively as CH.

In terms of the major differences...

Hole 1: The ladies tee is offset some 35 yards right and 23 yards ahead of the mens teeing area and is angled straight down the line of the fairway, you can see the entire length of the par 5 hole. from the whites/yellows you are aimed across the fairway, having to carry trees on the left if a big enough hitter or risk being pushed by the prevailing winds and a slice into a fairway bunker. Stood on the ladies tee it seemed little more constricted than i was expecting, the fairway seemed somehow narrower. If you pull the ball left into trees like i did however, it doesnt matter which tee you are playing off....a bogey awaits.

Hole 2: Par 3 to a huge green, no change in playing angle just a reduction in yardage from the white tees of 31 yards down to 167yds. flag was positioned at 157 yards, hit a high 6 iron to the heart of the green and 2 putted....a lot easier than having to hit a 3 wood off the tee

Hole 3: the forward nature of the red tees (24 yds) means that you have more leeway to carry fairway bunkers left and right of this slightly doglegged hole and will have a nice short wedge in to the green. Decent drive to the middle of the fairway, wedge from 65yds to about 10ft, rolled the birdie putt in.

Hole 4: A real difference for the ladies. Off the Whites you are playing across water from 180 yards to a narrow green which is angled across you. From the ladies it is a mere 118yds, straight down the line of the green with no water to negotiate (other than potentially pulling your ball left into the same lake that the men have to carry). PW to the green, 2 putts and walk on.

Hole 5: A 50 yard reduction in length off the ladies tee means that you can hit driver to the dogleg and have a clear approach to the green, rather than having to clear trees and carry water if you hit the same shot from the white tees. Found the fairway easily enough, but caught my approach heavy and left it 5 yards short of the green, failed to get up and down.

Hole 6: A short hole with a 20 yards reduction from the ladies tees, just needs a couple of clubs less to reach the dogleg. Rushed my tee shot (there were a couple of ladies coming down the parallel 11th and I decided not to risk incurring their wrath if they saw me playing off the reds), pushed into trees, couldnt make the green and once more failed to get up and down.

Hole 7: Its a long straight downhill par 5 with a 34 yard reduction off the reds but still in excess of 500 yards. Being forward opens up the hole visually a little bit and gives you the chance of avoiding trees down the right hand side if you should push/slice your tee shot a little bit. No issues yesterday with a standard fairway, fairway, green and 2 putt results

Hole 8: Ladies tee is 45 yards left and 30 yards or so forward. For some men this might encourage them to hit driver to carry a central fairway bunker at 200yds but for short hitters like me the safe option is to lay up...5 wood off the ladies tees rather than the three wood that I would normally hit off the whites. Regulation par.

Hole 9: Despite the red tee being 60 yards shorter you still have to contend with OOB all the way down the left handside within 5 yards of the fairway edge and you still get the slope that can push even the most centrally hit tee shots right into the rough (or bunkers if playing off the whites...but these should not be in play for men off the red tees. A simple 5 wood evaded all the trouble but still found the light rough on the right side after taking the slope. Wedged from 70 yards to about 10ft and rolled in the birdie putt.

So 3 bogeys and 2 birdies on the front nine.

Hole 10: 16 yards shorter on this par 3 which is the shortest hole on the course...96 yards off the red tees. Being ever so slightly further forward does make the green seem a little bit bigger and the pot bunkers that surround it a little bit less menacing. Regulation par.

Hole 11: The only hole I ballsed up as I tried to be a little bit more aggressive from the red tees some 26 yards further forward but a couple of "tiers" lower than the whites. Being further forward it brings into play a wider fairway lading area with more space beyond a copse of trees on the left. Went for it, pushed tee shot into trees on the right, chipped out, duffed approach to green, flubbed chip then chipped to 2ft and picked my ball up for a double bogey....dontcha just lovel MLS.

Hole 12: once more a par 3 where the yardage difference makes a significant change...40 yards further forward meaning you are hitting short/mid iron in rather than a hybrid or a 5 wood to this slightly uphill green....again a simple regulation par was achieved.

Hole 13: a beast of a par 4 off the back tees at 456 yards with the first 280 yards uphill changes to a less challenging 350yd hole off the reds where you can hit driver over the brow of the hill and be left with a mid iron in. Left the green approach short but was able to get up and down for par.

Hole 14: another hole where the red tees are a long way forward (70 yds) from the back tees. This opens up the possibility of cutting the corner on this gentle dogleg left hole with the green just 230yds away as the crow flies (250yd card yardage if you play the dogleg). I chose not to take on the challenge and played the dogleg...pushing my tee shot with a hybrid (taken for accuracy!!) into a bunker on the right of the fairway. Couldnt reach the green from the sand and couldnt get up and down.

Hole 15: another hole where the ladies tees are offset, in this case 50 yrds left and 40 yds ahead of the white tees, opening up a visual straight down the fairway to the hole (which you dont get from the whites) but, due to the red tee being close to a line of trees down the left hand side, those players who naturally hit a fade will more than likely see their ball end up on the right side of the fairway or in the trees beyond, unlike playing from the white tees where you can hit directly at the same bunch of trees on the left and work your ball back to the middle of the short stuff (unless you absolutely nail one dead straight!!) Another regulation par went on the card.

Hole 16: The final par 3, a reduction in yardage of 38 yds, leaving a short/mid iron in from around 135 yards. Nailed an 8 iron to 18 inches for a tap in birdie.

Hole 17: Red tees are offset by 25 yds to the right and ahead of the whites. From the ladies tees longer hitting mean should easily put the ball beyond the trees on the right hand side of this long sweeping dogleg of a par 5, affording them of a direct view of the hole for their second shot. For me it is rarely anything other than a three shotter and my approach was no different, driver, 8iron over the corner, 8 iron approach, 2 putts.

Hole 18: Just a simple reduction of 28 yards on this simple finishing hole. playing from the red tees meant I could virtually ignore the fairway bunker at about 160 yards and hit beyond it wheras off the white tees it is very much in play for anything slightly mis hit. Another simple fairway/green and 2 shot hole for par.

1 double, 1 bogey and 1 birdie on the back nine. My overall gross 73 would have resulted in a score differential of 8.4.

All in all, it was fun to play, but even for me as a relatively short hitter, there were a lot of holes where fairway challenges had been taken away by playing off the forward tees, and the par threes were all a lot less challenging with their mostly significantly shorter yardages. On the other hand, holes where there are forced (or sensible) layups (6,8,14) did not see any advantage from playing from forward tees other than you could take a shorter club off the tee in order to hit to the same place you would try to reach off the whites.

I can see however, how some of the seniors might get a different challenge from playing off the red tees as they would once more bring into play some of the fairway challenges they dont currently face due to not being long enough to reach them. However, to be truthful, I dont envisage many of them having the nerve to "tee it forward" on tees that have traditionally been seen as the ladies tees....and that is an attitude that I think will take a long time changing.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I can see however, how some of the seniors might get a different challenge from playing off the red tees as they would once more bring into play some of the fairway challenges they dont currently face due to not being long enough to reach them. However, to be truthful, I dont envisage many of them having the nerve to "tee it forward" on tees that have traditionally been seen as the ladies tees....and that is an attitude that I think will take a long time changing.

Therein lies the problem. Ego or peer group pressure is always going to come into play and unless golfers, not just seniors, but newer players etc are aware of the potential benefits of playing from forward markers they won't do it. I think there has to be an onus on clubs where forward tees are rated for men that they publicise and encourage people to use these markers

 

[Imurg]

During my early morning solo rounds I've often mixed things up by playing Reds, Yellows, Greens and Whites.
Some of the tee shots from the Reds surprised me...
On 3 or 4 holes, because I hit it further than the Ladies, the drive is far trickier than from the Whites or Yellows
The 11th is a perfect example.
305 yards dog leg right over the crest of a hill to a fairway that slopes left towards OB. And a bunker on the crest.
I can carry the bunker from the Whites and leave myself 60-100 yards in depending on the strike
From the Reds it's 248 yards..the tee is set left of the main tee box. Hitting driver brings the trees and bushes on the right into,play - and you need to push it right to counter the slope. Too straight and the slope takes the ball into the bushes or OB left.
So the drive becomes a hybrid or, maybe, 3 wood which leaves me in a similar position simply because I can't hit the driver. So no gain from a 57nyard shorter hole
The 15th has a similar issue but the opposite way round.
Having said that the 6th is waaaaaaay easier..
407 compared to 293 and that 293 is all downhill and often with the wind......
A good idea for a fun camp would be driving off from Whites on the 1st, Yellows on the 2nd, Greens 3rd and Reds 4th etc etc...

 

[chellie]

Our reds are now rated for men and yellows for women. The men recently had a competition off the reds.