WHS working well for me

NorfolkShaun

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The image does not make sense in some respect as it only shows one score in 2021.

Soft and hard caps are done on a rolling 365 day basis i.e your low index as at 365 days previous, not on the date of any given score other than an initial one which triggers the cap (if you follow).
ahh sorry, there are more scores to bring up to date but the image is all the 10.5 rounds and where there was a fluctuating index either side. Then there are 14 rounds since not showing with movement from the 18th April round at 11.1 to current date where I am 14.2 soft cap adjusted. The 2021 is the first qualifying round since lockdown.

with Congo you would be very unlikely to hit buffer for eight qualifying rounds, with WHS there is no buffer but this shows no change for eight rounds, just seems really odd.
 
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jim8flog

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with Congo you would be very unlikely to hit buffer for eight qualifying rounds, with WHS there is no buffer but this shows no change for eight rounds, just seems really odd.
Under the UHS I spent around 10 years with no significant change in my handicap varied between 5.5 and 6.4 so no real difference back then for me.

With the WHS (except for one significantly bad period, return after lockdown) my H.I has only varied by just over one shot.
 

harpo_72

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So yesterday didn’t sit right with me so I went off and calculated this guys handicap if his 8 lowest scores were used. The 20 cards window is being used to hide or remove low scores. There was a 6 shot deficit from current and what should be.
I am afraid the system is no stronger than the one it replaces ..
If I was unscrupulous I could add a few more poor cards in and jump up quite nicely, but my morals prevent me from doing so.
Lesson learned though don’t bother playing competitions until the system has got a solution.
 

Swango1980

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So yesterday didn’t sit right with me so I went off and calculated this guys handicap if his 8 lowest scores were used. The 20 cards window is being used to hide or remove low scores. There was a 6 shot deficit from current and what should be.
I am afraid the system is no stronger than the one it replaces ..
If I was unscrupulous I could add a few more poor cards in and jump up quite nicely, but my morals prevent me from doing so.
Lesson learned though don’t bother playing competitions until the system has got a solution.
WHS is always a system that would be open to more abuse for getting handicaps to go upwards. It had to be, one of the selling points was that in the old system handicaps did not go up quick enough. So, by definition, creating a system that allows handicaps to go up quicker will open it up to being abused for those that want their handicaps as high as possible. The main hope is "players won't do that", which is obviously naive, given the hundreds of stories on this forum alone that has provided examples of such players.

I had a bad round on Saturday and my Index went up 0.5 (it would have gone up the same amount even if it was a mediocre round). So, depending on what a players historical scores are, they could quickly get juice increases if they could submit a few rounds and remove several from their top 8. The skill will be for such players to time their score entry, so that they get the biggest increase immediately prior to entering their biggest event(s) of the year.
 

wjemather

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So yesterday didn’t sit right with me so I went off and calculated this guys handicap if his 8 lowest scores were used. The 20 cards window is being used to hide or remove low scores. There was a 6 shot deficit from current and what should be.
I am afraid the system is no stronger than the one it replaces ..
If I was unscrupulous I could add a few more poor cards in and jump up quite nicely, but my morals prevent me from doing so.
Lesson learned though don’t bother playing competitions until the system has got a solution.
There is no automatic solution, and there is never likely to be. The handicap system is a peer review system, which means all golfers have responsibility for maintaining the integrity of it. If you believe anyone is acting unscrupulously, you need to fulfil your responsibilities and submit a report/complaint to the relevant handicap committee.
 

harpo_72

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There is no automatic solution, and there is never likely to be. The handicap system is a peer review system, which means all golfers have responsibility for maintaining the integrity of it. If you believe anyone is acting unscrupulously, you need to fulfil your responsibilities and submit a report/complaint to the relevant handicap committee.
Yes I have been considering that. But to be honest I will be accused of being a sore loser. So I will step back and let everyone enjoy the possibilities that could occur.
But it’s good to know that if you can just view the handicap records you can identify the bandits.. I think match play competitions are fun , but they are the obvious victims of this behaviour. The normal competitions are just not worth the effort required and a good score stays on unless you can put in 3 general play cards a week over the summer period to go up for the next big competition
 
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Is anyone aware of the number of casual rounds and how it compared to the old supplementary rounds (I naively assume its exploded, but have zero evidence).

I played with a guy yesterday who signed in, asked me to mark his card, which I was happy to do, until he picked up his ball on the first after declaring his 2 footer a gimme!?

Quite shocked, I reminded him he was playing for his handicap, and kind of apologised I was writing down no score on the first... but he was adamant in the new system gimmies were fine in casual rounds and his normal group had been doing it all year.

Obviously with 17 holes to play I was keen not to fall out, and was releived when he agreed to just putt out for the rest of the round.

Anyone else had this!? (I hope its a one off, though am nearly certain itll be gimmies all round again when hes with his normal group...)

He wasnt a particularly low handicapper, and in his defence his handicap was reflective of his ability... but still...
 

wjemather

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Yes I have been considering that. But to be honest I will be accused of being a sore loser. So I will step back and let everyone enjoy the possibilities that could occur.
But it’s good to know that if you can just view the handicap records you can identify the bandits.. I think match play competitions are fun , but they are the obvious victims of this behaviour. The normal competitions are just not worth the effort required and a good score stays on unless you can put in 3 general play cards a week over the summer period to go up for the next big competition
Sorry, that's just nowhere near good enough. If you believe there is an issue, you have a responsibility to report it and not be part of the problem.
 

wjemather

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Is anyone aware of the number of casual rounds and how it compared to the old supplementary rounds (I naively assume its exploded, but have zero evidence).

I played with a guy yesterday who signed in, asked me to mark his card, which I was happy to do, until he picked up his ball on the first after declaring his 2 footer a gimme!?

Quite shocked, I reminded him he was playing for his handicap, and kind of apologised I was writing down no score on the first... but he was adamant in the new system gimmies were fine in casual rounds and his normal group had been doing it all year.

Obviously with 17 holes to play I was keen not to fall out, and was releived when he agreed to just putt out for the rest of the round.

Anyone else had this!? (I hope its a one off, though am nearly certain itll be gimmies all round again when hes with his normal group...)

He wasnt a particularly low handicapper, and in his defence his handicap was reflective of his ability... but still...
Yes, casual rounds are massively up on supplementaries - up from one or two, to over 50 per week at our club.

His handicap committee need to be made aware so they can re-educate everyone.
 

Bdill93

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Is anyone aware of the number of casual rounds and how it compared to the old supplementary rounds (I naively assume its exploded, but have zero evidence).

I played with a guy yesterday who signed in, asked me to mark his card, which I was happy to do, until he picked up his ball on the first after declaring his 2 footer a gimme!?

Quite shocked, I reminded him he was playing for his handicap, and kind of apologised I was writing down no score on the first... but he was adamant in the new system gimmies were fine in casual rounds and his normal group had been doing it all year.

Obviously with 17 holes to play I was keen not to fall out, and was releived when he agreed to just putt out for the rest of the round.

Anyone else had this!? (I hope its a one off, though am nearly certain itll be gimmies all round again when hes with his normal group...)

He wasnt a particularly low handicapper, and in his defence his handicap was reflective of his ability... but still...
Loads of guys at my place are doing gimmies and sticking rounds in. Not sure why they think they can, but they do!

Not my approach, I've missed plenty of gimmies in my time so if playing for handicap I hole out. Only time I take a gimmie is practise rounds when I just cba to putt.
 

wjemather

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Loads of guys at my place are doing gimmies and sticking rounds in. Not sure why they think they can, but they do!

Not my approach, I've missed plenty of gimmies in my time so if playing for handicap I hole out. Only time I take a gimmie is practise rounds when I just cba to putt.
Again, your handicap committee needs to be made aware so they can educate everyone.
 

HampshireHog

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Yes I have been considering that. But to be honest I will be accused of being a sore loser. So I will step back and let everyone enjoy the possibilities that could occur.
But it’s good to know that if you can just view the handicap records you can identify the bandits.. I think match play competitions are fun , but they are the obvious victims of this behaviour. The normal competitions are just not worth the effort required and a good score stays on unless you can put in 3 general play cards a week over the summer period to go up for the next big competition
You haven’t really provided any reason as to why you think this was a case of handicap manipulation.

Form goes up and down and good scores will drop out. What specifically makes you suspicious that they are actively managing their handicap odd patterns in general play score cards?
 

Bdill93

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You haven’t really provided any reason as to why you think this was a case of handicap manipulation.

Form goes up and down and good scores will drop out. What specifically makes you suspicious that they are actively managing their handicap odd patterns in general play score cards?
My best score dropped off 3 weeks ago, I wasnt even getting close to it. Since then ive carded a lowest ever score and my second lowest ever.

Sometimes weird stuff just happens!
 
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Loads of guys at my place are doing gimmies and sticking rounds in. Not sure why they think they can, but they do!

Not my approach, I've missed plenty of gimmies in my time so if playing for handicap I hole out. Only time I take a gimmie is practise rounds when I just cba to putt.
I can't get my head round why they would think this is correct? It just further emphasizes the farce that it is.
 
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There is no automatic solution, and there is never likely to be. The handicap system is a peer review system, which means all golfers have responsibility for maintaining the integrity of it. If you believe anyone is acting unscrupulously, you need to fulfil your responsibilities and submit a report/complaint to the relevant handicap committee.
Maybe not an automatic solution, but I can't see WHS in its current form lasting more than a couple of years, the complaints are too many for the authorities to sit back slapping themselves on the back. It'll be tweeked (probably in a very small way), it still won't be as good as UHS, but it'll be their "solution"
 

Bdill93

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I can't get my head round why they would think this is correct? It just further emphasizes the farce that it is.
Honestly not sure. Theres never been anything to suggest that it would be acceptable.

I suppose its the casual round element, they obviously adhere to rules in comps - pretty strict on rules in comps at our place!
 

HampshireHog

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My best score dropped off 3 weeks ago, I wasnt even getting close to it. Since then ive carded a lowest ever score and my second lowest ever.

Sometimes weird stuff just happens!
That’s my point good scores go eventually. That’s how the system works. At my ability things like work stress and minor aches and pains can affect my form if is ongoing. Fully, accept that if someone only bangs a load of general play scores after a good round that is suspicious.
 

Swango1980

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Honestly not sure. Theres never been anything to suggest that it would be acceptable.

I suppose its the casual round element, they obviously adhere to rules in comps - pretty strict on rules in comps at our place!
It is the sort of thing that would happen regardless of the handicap system in place. Just having more of an impact now as many more golfers are sticking in general play rounds.

At my new club, I have also heard roll up groups play gimmes and hand in cards (a group of us joined from my old club, and one of the group told me this after playing in the roll up, he was quite shocked as well). Another roll up group have an agreement they'll only hand in scores if a player shoots 38 points or more. This is the sort of behaviour that happens when you permit scores from social golf to be entered for handicap. It is not malicious behaviour 99% of the time. It is just a more relaxed, unofficial, "this is the way we do things" attitude, compared to the more official, organised, formal feel of a competition. Clubs can better educate players and hopefully make things better. But, it is not going to eliminate many of these issues, as many players, for example, will never ditch a habit of a life time and suddenly not play gimmes.
 
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