WHS working well for me

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jim8flog

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If I was unscrupulous I could add a few more poor cards in and jump up quite nicely, but my morals prevent me from doing so.
Lesson learned though don’t bother playing competitions until the system has got a solution.
So, depending on what a players historical scores are, they could quickly get juice increases if they could submit a few rounds and remove several from their top 8. The skill will be for such players to time their score entry, so that they get the biggest increase immediately prior to entering their biggest event(s) of the year.

Until a player the reaches the hard cap.
 

harpo_72

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You haven’t really provided any reason as to why you think this was a case of handicap manipulation.

Form goes up and down and good scores will drop out. What specifically makes you suspicious that they are actively managing their handicap odd patterns in general play score cards?
General play and ball striking, he opened with a 300 yard drive and 25 yard flick to the first. Played bladed irons, struck the ball cleanly from the rough with back spin to the green. 9 irons were flying in from 160+ yards, out of bunkers cleanly … it wasn’t a 15 handicapper‘s game. The opening statement was “I prefer match play because I can’t play 18 holes“ was a bit odd and the scoring record on the stableford competitions showing 6-7 blobs a round with a sprinkling of good rounds in the low 80s … it’s just the number of bad rounds and how they have removed his good scores. I give most people the benefit of the doubt, but the shots started flying into the flags and were always straight. Which made me start to think there was some dodgey stuff afoot. Hence going through his historical rounds.
 

harpo_72

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interested to know what you mean by this.
Your 8 best scores are taken from your last 20 rounds … put in a lot of rounds and the window moves, making a new set of 8 best scores. This guy moved his in 5 rounds from 8.3 to 13.5 on the index
 

Swango1980

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Until a player the reaches the hard cap.
Absolutely, that is the one condition. Although, an increase of up to 6 shots (on many courses based on typical slope) is still a nice boost to course handicap. And, if they could arguably inflate this year after year, unless they submit more good scores to get back down to their previous low index level.
 

harpo_72

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Sorry, that's just nowhere near good enough. If you believe there is an issue, you have a responsibility to report it and not be part of the problem.
It will be interesting to see if others have commented or hold opinions … I don’t normally engage on these matters, I deal with it my way. I will keep an eye out but no more match play competitions
 

wjemather

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Your 8 best scores are taken from your last 20 rounds … put in a lot of rounds and the window moves, making a new set of 8 best scores. This guy moved his in 5 rounds from 8.3 to 13.5 on the index
Hard cap is 5 above the low index. Assuming more than 20 scores on their record and the indexes given are recent, the increase you describe is not possible without intervention by a handicap secretary.

If they have very few scores, such movement is not unusual when a great round is submitted in the first few.
 
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Just did a quick calc....

In 7 rounds I could be off 5 shots higher (including the soft cap adjustments) it would only mean not playing to within 5 shots of my handicap which could happen without manipulation. If i only played in organised comps, I could play 7 times in 10 days.
 

Bdill93

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Just did a quick calc....

In 7 rounds I could be off 5 shots higher (including the soft cap adjustments) it would only mean not playing to within 5 shots of my handicap which could happen without manipulation. If i only played in organised comps, I could play 7 times in 10 days.
Ive done this myself recently. Just had a bad couple of months. 7 scores submitted, none of which are "counting scores" but did push out my lowest round our of my best 8! Since replaced with an even better score and now at my lowest ever HI.
 
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Apologies 4 shots higher... not sure if my playing handicap may be 5 higher though, i doubt very much that my handicap committee would step in.

Why may soon find out!!
 

harpo_72

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Hard cap is 5 above the low index. Assuming more than 20 scores on their record and the indexes given are recent, the increase you describe is not possible without intervention by a handicap secretary.

If they have very few scores, such movement is not unusual when a great round is submitted in the first few.
Handicap record is over 2 clubs as is a new member.. so possibly the committee has also created a nice environment for such behaviour.. they may not like that being indicated to them.
 
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jim8flog

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Absolutely, that is the one condition. Although, an increase of up to 6 shots (on many courses based on typical slope) is still a nice boost to course handicap. And, if they could arguably inflate this year after year, unless they submit more good scores to get back down to their previous low index level.
Not following you. Hard cap kicks in at an extra three shots and limits total rise to five shots in a calendar year
 

ger147

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Handicap record is over 2 clubs as is a new member.. so possibly the committee has also created a nice environment for such behaviour.. they may not like that being indicated to them.
How do you know it is handicap manipulation?

You might think the same if you look at my handicap record. My lowest differential is 7.3 which is one of my counters, I have 2 others of 8 something and the rest a bit higher. My current index is 11.1 and my low index is 10.6. The 4 rounds immediately the 7.3 differential are all 20+. Is that because I am trying to manipulate my handicap? No, it's because I'm inconsistent because I'm just an ordinary weekend golfer who doesn't practice, and so on a good day am capable of a decent score and on a bad day can still end up with a horrifically bad score. And I can easily have a run of bad scores and occasionally a run of good scores.

Deciding someone is a cheat based solely on a quick scan of their handicap record is very poor IMO.
 
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jim8flog

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Your 8 best scores are taken from your last 20 rounds … put in a lot of rounds and the window moves, making a new set of 8 best scores. This guy moved his in 5 rounds from 8.3 to 13.5 on the index
I would be interested in the age of the good scores you mention. If more than a year old then there could be a good reason behind it such as injury.

Having gone from 8.3 to 13.5 in one year is not possible, is that a typo?

There are two trigger points within the cap procedure:
(i) The soft cap. The soft cap is triggered when the difference between a player’s
newly calculated Handicap Index and their Low Handicap Index is greater than
3.0 strokes.
When a calculated Handicap Index increase is greater than 3.0 strokes, the
value above 3.0 strokes is restricted to 50% of the increase.
(ii) The hard cap. The hard cap triggers to restrict the amount by which a
player’s Handicap Index can increase, after application of the soft cap, to no
more than 5.0 strokes above their Low Handicap Index.
 
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General play and ball striking, he opened with a 300 yard drive and 25 yard flick to the first. Played bladed irons, struck the ball cleanly from the rough with back spin to the green. 9 irons were flying in from 160+ yards, out of bunkers cleanly … it wasn’t a 15 handicapper‘s game. The opening statement was “I prefer match play because I can’t play 18 holes“ was a bit odd and the scoring record on the stableford competitions showing 6-7 blobs a round with a sprinkling of good rounds in the low 80s … it’s just the number of bad rounds and how they have removed his good scores. I give most people the benefit of the doubt, but the shots started flying into the flags and were always straight. Which made me start to think there was some dodgey stuff afoot. Hence going through his historical rounds.
In the semi-final of the high handicap matchplay, I played the front nine of my course in 45 last week - I opened par/par/par/par. I am sure my opponent suspected the same; I've got 11 rounds in my handicap record at the moment off a mixture of our courses and tees and my best front or back nine is 50. I really do try my hardest every time I play, am nowhere near good enough to manipulate my score, and would be upset if anyone seriously thought otherwise. Are we incapable of seeing someone play well by their own standrds and say "well done"?
 

NorfolkShaun

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Out of interest, where does this sit with someone who puts nearly all their cards in but only really focuses for the comps?

Are they a bandit or just playing the system how is it supposed to be used?
how do you then judge what cards should go in.

Personally I prefer club competitions only
 

Swango1980

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Out of interest, where does this sit with someone who puts nearly all their cards in but only really focuses for the comps?

Are they a bandit or just playing the system how is it supposed to be used?
how do you then judge what cards should go in.

Personally I prefer club competitions only
When you submit a card for handicap, it is the players responsibility to try and score as best they can. If they are clearly not living up to this responsibility, then they are open to having disciplinary procedures opened against them. Of course, it would require this behaviour to be pretty obvious for there to be enough evidence to take action against them. Probably not a lot one can do if they are just a little less concentrated on social rounds than they typically would be in competitions. However, if they are clearly messing about in social rounds and submitting cards, it would be fair to question why are they submitting a card at all?
 
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When you submit a card for handicap, it is the players responsibility to try and score as best they can. If they are clearly not living up to this responsibility, then they are open to having disciplinary procedures opened against them. Of course, it would require this behaviour to be pretty obvious for there to be enough evidence to take action against them. Probably not a lot one can do if they are just a little less concentrated on social rounds than they typically would be in competitions. However, if they are clearly messing about in social rounds and submitting cards, it would be fair to question why are they submitting a card at all?
In lots of the situations mentioned on here, people have been practically press ganged into handing in cards, normally as sweeps etc have been encourages to become legitimate competitions etc.

At my club, you can only play off the back tees in competitions. I regularly play as a one ball and people join me. At the weekend ive regularly had to enter the comp, and so enter a score, for no other reason than my uninvited partner wants to play in the comp, and i dont want to go through the logistical ache of playing from different tees.

So rightly or wrongly, i reckon it happens fairly often.
 

harpo_72

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How do you know it is handicap manipulation?

You might think the same if you look at my handicap record. My lowest differential is 7.3 which is one of my counters, I have 2 others of 8 something and the rest a bit higher. My current index is 11.1 and my low index is 10.6. The 4 rounds immediately the 7.3 differential are all 20+. Is that because I am trying to manipulate my handicap? No, it's because I'm inconsistent because I'm just an ordinary weekend golfer who doesn't practice, and so on a good day am capable of a decent score and on a bad day can still end up with a horrifically bad score. And I can easily have a run of bad scores and occasionally a run of good scores.

Deciding someone is a cheat based solely on a quick scan of their handicap record is very poor IMO.
Did not look at the handicap record until I actually played the guy. So judgement is based on other data. But I note your response and that is why I cannot be bothered to complain because your viewpoint is justified.. I don’t walk around calling people cheats, but this was a little extraordinary
 
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