Amount of cards required for comps

[VVega]

Just as a reference, Hotchkin’s Pairs Open requires:

Please note that all competitors require 3 competition cards on their handicap record within 12 months prior to the competition to be eligible to win a prize

 

[IanM]

You don't need to mess with handicap restrictions.

Just make the prizes not worth cheating for. It's AMATEUR golf after all.

Now, there's a radical plan

 

[VVega]

You don't need to mess with handicap restrictions.

Just make the prizes not worth cheating for. It's AMATEUR golf after all.

Now, there's a radical plan

A box of Topflight golf balls would be perfect!

 

[rulie]

A box of Topflight golf balls would be perfect!

Save the valuable prizes for door prizes where every competitor has an equal chance to win, not just those with the sharpest pencil.

 

[Baz The Wordsmith]

You don't need to mess with handicap restrictions.

Just make the prizes not worth cheating for. It's AMATEUR golf after all.

Now, there's a radical plan

Sort of get that but some people buy gear with prize money because it is expensive.

 

[IanM]

Sort of get that but some people buy gear with prize money because it is expensive.

And? Does that mean folk cheat because gear is expensive?

Usually they get pro shop vouchers. I wonder how much swag ends up on Ebay?

 

[Baz The Wordsmith]

OK but it usually isn't in the few I've played in. However my main query was why general play cards should be automatically regarded as inferior to competition scores because you can cheat and sandbag in either (in fact with my social golf mates, it would be harder because they know my general level).

If you said you should not play in those team events unless you have 3 or 6 (or more) cards submitted of whatever type in the previous 6 or 12 months, I'd see your point. In fact I think the ones I've played in have required a minimum number of cards (any type) or you don't get any prizes of any type. See also my comment above about club matches (which I do sometimes play in), although we have partly fixed this by making pairs have roughly the same handicaps.

Well I suppose you cant get cut by observation when out with your mates and there might be mulligans and gimmes and the rules may not be adhered to. Some people perform differently under competition conditions. ( I generally perform better) It just makes it easier to get a picture of the persons ability in competition conditions off medal tees. Thats my take. Some maybe dont agree but the majority are in favour of clamping down on manipulation. I understand the essence of your point but dont agree with it.

 

[Baz The Wordsmith]

And? Does that mean folk cheat because gear is expensive?

Usually they get pro shop vouchers. I wonder how much swag ends up on Ebay?

No people like myself dont cheat and win a decent amount with an honest handicap. Usually a few hundred a year. Gear is expensive. I wouldnt ever pay the prices for top quality gear if I didnt have money in the book. I bought a Qi10 5 wood for 295 which was book money which i would never pay cash for. Also vouchers can be used for M an S for Holidays or against your subs.
I also won 3.5k for a hole in one which was helpful. I can easily show my handicap is honest as i play 50 comps a year and I am very consistent.
There are people who have been known to cheat either by manipulating handicaps or fiddling scores and hoovering up thousands worth of vouchers.
There are also people who avoid submitting cards and there handicap is inaccurate as a result.
For many years I have used winnings to help buy gear.
When I was a Salmon Fisherman I did the same We cant all afford thousands on gear unless like me you win as much as an average tour player

 

[Swango1980]

A box of Topflight golf balls would be perfect!

Two boxes would be even better

 

[D-S]

No people like myself dont cheat and win a decent amount with an honest handicap. Usually a few hundred a year. Gear is expensive. I wouldnt ever pay the prices for top quality gear if I didnt have money in the book. I bought a Qi10 5 wood for 295 which was book money which i would never pay cash for. Also vouchers can be used for M an S for Holidays or against your subs.
I also won 3.5k for a hole in one which was helpful. I can easily show my handicap is honest as i play 50 comps a year and I am very consistent.
There are people who have been known to cheat either by manipulating handicaps or fiddling scores and hoovering up thousands worth of vouchers.
There are also people who avoid submitting cards and there handicap is inaccurate as a result.
For many years I have used winnings to help buy gear.
When I was a Salmon Fisherman I did the same We cant all afford thousands on gear unless like me you win as much as an average tour player

50 comps a year you need to win a couple of hundred just to get your money back.

 

[Beechwood070552]

We have had a requirement in place at our club for 6 qualifying cards to enter competitions.
This was in order to ensure that those playing had an accurate handicap ( or more accurate than if they submitted none) and to address the winning of prizes by those who played in Matchplay and Team Events and won and never seemed to be cut appropriately as they then didn't play in competitions which would mean they would be.
Subsequently we have diluted the requirement to 3 formal competitions and 3 supplementary ones. ( as there was some unrest about the decision)
My view is that the more cards you put in the more accurate your handicap is. The system recommends 8 from 20 for accuracy.
The polar opposite view is those who will avoid submitting cards as if their life depended on it.
Somewhere in between there are people who want to play in team and matchplay events and not individual events for some strange reason.The concern is that this provides an environment ripe for handicap manipulation.Technically the handicap does not expire under WHS so someone off 28 say could play for 3 years and get down to say 14 and still play off 28 by submitting no cards while hoovering up all the matchplay and team events with a dishonest handicap.
Those who protest the most may well be those who are in some way trying to manipulate the system.
Those who support the requirement for the submission of cards to me are in support of everyone having an accurate handicap.
I would be interested to know what requirements other clubs have in place because one of the challenges is proving that we are not alone and that our clubs requirement of 3 and 3 is certainly not an unreasonable one.

Summary
We have a requirement for 3 formal competition score submissions and 3 general play cards in order to enter our competitions
Does your club have a requirement in place and where are you based?

Many Thanks, Baz

 

[Beechwood070552]

We ask for 10 cards required to play in Board, Trophy or Major Competition, either GP or Competition cards.
Is it reasonable to require a number of the cards to be Competition, maybe 3 or 5?

 

[Swango1980]

We ask for 10 cards required to play in Board, Trophy or Major Competition, either GP or Competition cards.
Is it reasonable to require a number of the cards to be Competition, maybe 3 or 5?

Perhaps.

But I know a club that has said to play in Opens you need 15 Comp scores in last 20 rounds.

That immediately rules me out. I play very comp going at my club, but I also put all my social scores in as well, so I'm usually around 50/50 between comp and GP scores

 

[KenL]

Perhaps.

But I know a club that has said to play in Opens you need 15 Comp scores in last 20 rounds.

That immediately rules me out. I play very comp going at my club, but I also put all my social scores in as well, so I'm usually around 50/50 between comp and GP scores

Not easy to achieve that at clubs that have few comps.

 

[rulie]

Perhaps.

But I know a club that has said to play in Opens you need 15 Comp scores in last 20 rounds.

That immediately rules me out. I play very comp going at my club, but I also put all my social scores in as well, so I'm usually around 50/50 between comp and GP scores

If you're interested in playing in that club's Opens, then you best change your behaviour! If not, so what?

 

[LincolnShep]

If you're interested in playing in that club's Opens, then you best change your behaviour! If not, so what?

If that club is interested in getting Swango's open entry fee, then they had best change their entry criteria! If not, so what?

 

[Orikoru]

If memory serves correctly, to win board comps and enter matchplay comps you need to have at least 8 rounds on your record from within the last year, and 4 of those be competition ones.

My club has now doubled this requirement. You need to have 8 competition cards in the last year now, in order to be eligible to win a board comp, or enter a matchplay knockout. I only have 6 so I'm in a race to add some more now. I should be doing the Stableford this Sunday to take me to 7. But once we get to April and May I'm losing a couple from last year!

At the same time as increasing this requirement, they also increased the entry fee from £3 to £4. Very sneaky.

 

[Swango1980]

If that club is interested in getting Swango's open entry fee, then they had best change their entry criteria! If not, so what?

If the Club were to say 15 comp scores in a year, fair enough. It is a very high number that many probably can't make, but it at least is likely to restrict the field to players who play many competitions in a year.

But to say 15 in your last 20 is a bit of a joke to me. You can have someone like me that probably plays 20-25 comps a year (which is a lot, considering I can't play midweek and the course is not acceptable for handicap in winter) that will be ineligible to play because I may only have 10 comp scores in my last 20. Whereas you could have someone who hasn't submitted a score in over a year, but all their last 20 are all comps, and they can enter.

At end of day, I'll lose no sleep over it. I'd have played there if eligible, but as I'm not there are plenty of other options to play Open Golf. If the club get many in their Open, then they'll lose no sleep over it, and if they get limited numbers, maybe they will need to ask themselves why. But, I'm certainly not changing my behavior in submitting GP scores. It is exactly what the handicap authorities are trying to encourage golfers to do, and I think it also makes social golf more interesting (for me) as the round means a bit more than just whacking a golf ball about the course. Keeps my focus for longer.

 

[Dunesman]

Perhaps.

But I know a club that has said to play in Opens you need 15 Comp scores in last 20 rounds.

That sounds eminently sensible, and one could even say its worth going the whole hog, and 20 comp scores are required in the handicap for opens or board comps.
This would neatly segregate competition golf and competition handicaps, from the GP and casual round players.
A two speed system.
Having both might appease every one : have a handicap for competitions based solely on competition scores as effectively we had, and, an 'all cards' handicap with both comp and GP scores for use in casual play.
It might restore confidence in WHS.

 

[Swango1980]

That sounds eminently sensible, and one could even say its worth going the whole hog, and 20 comp scores are required in the handicap for opens or board comps.
This would neatly segregate competition golf and competition handicaps, from the GP and casual round players.
A two speed system.
Having both might appease every one : have a handicap for competitions based solely on competition scores as effectively we had, and, an 'all cards' handicap with both comp and GP scores for use in casual play.
It might restore confidence in WHS.

I wouldn't mind a system that at least makes it visible to all golfers (not just administrators) what a players handicap would be with just comp scores and just GP scores.

Even if the actual handicap is still worked out as it is now, at least a few "dodgy" golfers might be a little more cautious in submitting poor GP scores, if they and everyone else can see their GP handicap would be much higher than their comp handicap (or for low handicappers, people might see their GP handicap being much lower than their comp handicap)

I'd also love some sort of database where all Open golf, no matter the format, are logged. Final scores, size of field, placing in field, etc. Then a system derived to evaluate those scores, and highlight golfers that appear to be much more successful than would be expected, and those flags raised at both the club running the open, and their home club once results posted.