Amount of cards required for comps

[wjemather]

Perhaps.

But I know a club that has said to play in Opens you need 15 Comp scores in last 20 rounds.

That immediately rules me out. I play very comp going at my club, but I also put all my social scores in as well, so I'm usually around 50/50 between comp and GP scores

As this would restrict GP scores from being submitted, it is not a condition that is permitted by EG (something like 15 comp scores in previous 12 months would be fine though).

 

[LincolnShep]

To be honest, I'm not sure that the person that wrote their conditions of entry and uploaded it to Golf Empire understood exactly what they were writing...

• All of their comps state that players must be over 55, not just the seniors events.
• What does "holding an active low index" mean? Everyone with at least 20 cards on their record has a low index. Maybe they're using this as a means to exclude anyone with fewer than 20 cards. If so, it would be easier to be explicit.
• 15 comp scores in last 20 is more than double the highest requirement that I've seen at any other open (and I play a lot of opens). This only applies to visitors BTW.
• Why have they mentioned the requirement to have a low index again? Is the condition to have five comp rounds in past 12 months in addition to the 15 comp rounds in the last 20, or is this the condition for their own members as opposed to away handicaps?
• They mention "No iGolf" twice.

Anyway, I just read that and think "I don't understand it all, I could ring them and find the answer or I could just enter one of the other opens that are on that day". Some will bother ringing, I just enter somewhere else.

 

[Swango1980]

To be honest, I'm not sure that the person that wrote their conditions of entry and uploaded it to Golf Empire understood exactly what they were writing...

View attachment 57098

• All of their comps state that players must be over 55, not just the seniors events.
• What does "holding an active low index" mean? Everyone with at least 20 cards on their record has a low index. Maybe they're using this as a means to exclude anyone with fewer than 20 cards. If so, it would be easier to be explicit.
• 15 comp scores in last 20 is more than double the highest requirement that I've seen at any other open (and I play a lot of opens). This only applies to visitors BTW.
• Why have they mentioned the requirement to have a low index again? Is the condition to have five comp rounds in past 12 months in addition to the 15 comp rounds in the last 20, or is this the condition for their own members as opposed to away handicaps?
• They mention "No iGolf" twice.

Anyway, I just read that and think "I don't understand it all, I could ring them and find the answer or I could just enter one of the other opens that are on that day". Some will bother ringing, I just enter somewhere else.

I think if anyone understands their terms, they deserve one of the prizes regardless of their score on the day.

 

[Dunesman]

If the Club were to say 15 comp scores in a year, fair enough. It is a very high number that many probably can't make, but it at least is likely to restrict the field to players who play many competitions in a year.

But to say 15 in your last 20 is a bit of a joke to me. You can have someone like me that probably plays 20-25 comps a year (which is a lot, considering I can't play midweek and the course is not acceptable for handicap in winter) that will be ineligible to play because I may only have 10 comp scores in my last 20. Whereas you could have someone who hasn't submitted a score in over a year, but all their last 20 are all comps, and they can enter.

Different clubs are trying different methods to cope with the WHS problems. As you are playing plenty of comps in a year, this type of restriction is not trying to exclude you, rather, just discourage you from putting in GP scores.
Yes the anomaly remains of old scores, even if competition scores, determining a handicap. But that was another good element lost in WHS - the maintaining of competition handicap status.

 

[Backache]

To be honest, I'm not sure that the person that wrote their conditions of entry and uploaded it to Golf Empire understood exactly what they were writing...

View attachment 57098

• All of their comps state that players must be over 55, not just the seniors events.
• What does "holding an active low index" mean? Everyone with at least 20 cards on their record has a low index. Maybe they're using this as a means to exclude anyone with fewer than 20 cards. If so, it would be easier to be explicit.
• 15 comp scores in last 20 is more than double the highest requirement that I've seen at any other open (and I play a lot of opens). This only applies to visitors BTW.
• Why have they mentioned the requirement to have a low index again? Is the condition to have five comp rounds in past 12 months in addition to the 15 comp rounds in the last 20, or is this the condition for their own members as opposed to away handicaps?
• They mention "No iGolf" twice.

Anyway, I just read that and think "I don't understand it all, I could ring them and find the answer or I could just enter one of the other opens that are on that day". Some will bother ringing, I just enter somewhere else.

One thing is that appears to be prize eligibility not competition entry . You're welcome to go along and play the course, just can't claim any prizes if you're suspected of being a sandbagger.
Must admit I play away courses for the enjoyment not the prizes.

 

[Dunesman]

As this would restrict GP scores from being submitted, it is not a condition that is permitted by EG (something like 15 comp scores in previous 12 months would be fine though).

Clubs are having to work around EG though, given EG's lack of action in addressing clubs concerns. I dont think either side is too concerned about permission : clubs are doing what they feel is right to maintain the tradition and controls for competition golf, EG letting them do it as they are more concerned with igolf and total cards submitted metrics.
One might say that EG has lost the dressing room. But EG might also be happy enough that tweaks at the fringes, even if outside their guidelines, are happening, if it keeps clubs happy.

 

[wjemather]

Clubs are having to work around EG though, given EG's lack of action in addressing clubs concerns. I dont think either side is too concerned about permission : clubs are doing what they feel is right to maintain the tradition and controls for competition golf, EG letting them do it as they are more concerned with igolf and total cards submitted metrics.
One might say that EG has lost the dressing room. But EG might also be happy enough that tweaks at the fringes, even if outside their guidelines, are happening, if it keeps clubs happy.

Rubbish.
A small number of clubs are implementing unacceptable conditions driven mostly by ignorance, and delusion about the value of competition scores in producing an accurate handicap.
EG are not turning a blind eye; they are educating (as the first step, and often through county) clubs that have unacceptable terms of competition as they become aware of them. EG's concern is fairness for players.

 

[LincolnShep]

One thing is that appears to be prize eligibility not competition entry . You're welcome to go along and play the course, just can't claim any prizes if you're suspected of being a sandbagger.
Must admit I play away courses for the enjoyment not the prizes.

Only the second half is prize eligibility. Maybe. Who knows?

I also only play for play's sake, prizes don't bother me. If it's a team event though, there's a need to make sure that everyone is also happy to forego a potential prize if one team member doesn't meet the criteria.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

This is where WHS or EG missed a trick, Using a simple excel spreadsheet I can tell you what my official index (all submitted cards) would be, Just comp scores, home course only , away courses only, and what my index would be just using scores when playing our little swindle between a group of friends.
If I can do it, then clubs should have been able (allowed) to use this information for their own competitions as they saw fit.

 

[Swango1980]

One thing is that appears to be prize eligibility not competition entry . You're welcome to go along and play the course, just can't claim any prizes if you're suspected of being a sandbagger.
Must admit I play away courses for the enjoyment not the prizes.

All very well being able to play and not win a prize, although it would irk me if I still had to pay the same entry fee as everyone else, and help fund the prizes for the rest of the field. If they were to give a discount, subtracting the amount of the entry fee they allocate to prizes, then fair enough.

 

[Backache]

Rubbish.
A small number of clubs are implementing unacceptable conditions driven mostly by ignorance,

The only people who deem them unacceptable are the self important stuffed shirts who dreamed up the system.
For anyone else it's a natural progression to discourage handicap manipulation in a clubs competitions.

Meanwhile the rest of us can look on and laugh at the Colonel Blitherington-Idiots who deem themselves so important that they can say that a minor variation in eligibility is unacceptable.

I say another Kimmel Colonel look what the plebs are trying to do.

 

[Swango1980]

The only people who deem them unacceptable are the self important stuffed shirts who dreamed up the system.
For anyone else it's a natural progression to discourage handicap manipulation in a clubs competitions.

Meanwhile the rest of us can look on and laugh at the Colonel Blitherington-Idiots who deem themselves so important that they can say that a minor variation in eligibility is unacceptable.

I say another Kimmel Colonel look what the plebs are trying to do.

I wonder if there is any way for people to be critical of something these days, without getting offensive to the people in authority?

I appreciate it has become the fashionable thing these days, to mock those in a position of authority. But, the reality is that most of these people are just golfers like the rest of us, but they've shown a degree of intelligence and skill to get in that position. It is all too easy to just dismiss them as "self important stuffed shirts", but that really adds nothing to the argument except demonstrate one is now trying to knock the credibility of all those in authority, without likely knowing any of them at all.

It is often a cheap shot also thrown by some club golfers at people on club committees. So, some might think these "stuffed shirts" are actually the ones in the club making these handicap conditions outside the regulations. Maybe these are the self-important people? Of course, I guess anyone can just pick what people to throw insults at depending on which side of the argument they are on.

 

[clubchamp98]

That sounds eminently sensible, and one could even say its worth going the whole hog, and 20 comp scores are required in the handicap for opens or board comps.
This would neatly segregate competition golf and competition handicaps, from the GP and casual round players.
A two speed system.
Having both might appease every one : have a handicap for competitions based solely on competition scores as effectively we had, and, an 'all cards' handicap with both comp and GP scores for use in casual play.
It might restore confidence in WHS.

Be interesting to see the difference in scores of both categories!

 

[Backache]

I wonder if there is any way for people to be critical of something these days, without getting offensive to the people in authority?

I would have some sympathy with this argument if there had been genuine engagement at club level and an attempt to understand and explain. I have seen nothing but highhandedness which is why the derision is deserved.

 

[wjemather]

With all this authoritarian high-handedness, it's odd that there hasn't been endless reports of clubs having their affiliation suspended for failing to adhere to WHS rules and guidance, and employing conditions in their terms of competition that are not allowed.

In reality of course, the unions (both national and counties) have been communicating with, educating and assisting, clubs and their committees constantly since long before WHS implementation, and that has continued over the subsequent 4+ years. Terms of competition was addressed specifically by EG in a WHS communication to clubs last year, and they have also provided detailed guidance and templates to assist clubs.

 

[D-S]

Be interesting to see the difference in scores of both categories!

Handicap Committees have access to a report that shows exactly that for all members for any period that they choose.
This is a key part of any handicap review (which can be done at any time).
My club did a detailed analysis using this report recently and found no suspiciously high differentials (up or down) between players’ GP scores and competition scores.

 

[YandaB]

Handicap Committees have access to a report that shows exactly that for all members for any period that they choose.
This is a key part of any handicap review (which can be done at any time).
My club did a detailed analysis using this report recently and found no suspiciously high differentials (up or down) between players’ GP scores and competition scores.

If only it did actually show the difference, to get the actual differences you need to extract it into excel and DIY. Unless I've missed something, very happy to learn something.

 

[D-S]

If only it did actually show the difference, to get the actual differences you need to extract it into excel and DIY. Unless I've missed something, very happy to learn something.

No, despite asking EG for a more user friendly functional report, you still have to export it into Excel.

Requests have been made for more prompts and alerts that will aid committees, hopefully these will be acted upon.

 

[clubchamp98]

Handicap Committees have access to a report that shows exactly that for all members for any period that they choose.
This is a key part of any handicap review (which can be done at any time).
My club did a detailed analysis using this report recently and found no suspiciously high differentials (up or down) between players’ GP scores and competition scores.

Might not be in normal club golf.
But opens are a different animal !

 

[LincolnShep]

Here's a new one. Looking at an open for a club in Yorkshire and one of their qualifying criteria is "3 of 4 per team must be from the same club".
Maybe it's supposed to say 3 or 4 but, either way, it's a restriction that I haven't seen before.
I wonder if it's been done to exclude one specific team, as this particular open has a large prize fund.