Sex discrimination in golf

[sammyboy]

1) because a lot of women's shirts aren't designed to be tucked in. Men's polo shirts are.

2) men should have a toilet. But if you only have space/money to build one for now, women's should be a priority, for obvious reasons.

3) because female golfers are often the butt of jokes or made to feel unwelcome by a small minority of men. Do you have problem with there being a time reserved for juniors?

4) that's not ok, unless it means you'd be impinging on a women's only allocated slot.

The fact that you think anyone who disagrees with you is a "white knight" makes me think you don't want actual answers though.

I was genuinely looking for answers.

1. I'm sorry but what about the design of a shirt means it should be tucked in? Many women chose to tuck shirts in so I think the idea that there is no clothing that women can wear is fatally flawed. Men can also purchase polo shirts that are designed not to be tucked in (as in they are too short) - they simply cannot wear them. What it seems you mean is some women chose to buy shirts knowing they don't have to tuck them in...

2. I accept women should have priority. But again I don't see why you need a gender-specific toilet if you can only afford one... Why not simply say anyone can use it. There is only one toiler in there so it's not like anyone will be exposing themselves to the opposite sex.

3. New golfers are the butt of jokes. Rubbish golfers are the butt of jokes. Old golfers are the butt of jokes. I don't know a single person who would make jokes about a women which they wouldn't make about a man. If I duff my drive I expected some ridicule. If I take 3 to get out of a bunker the same. If I hit a nice shot I also might get a compliment. Same for boys and girls. So no need to seperate.

At my club there are no times reserved for children. So I can't comment on that.

4. I agree it's not okay. But any comments to the committee of the pro shop get 'yeah we know'. But nothing is gone about it. If I chose to refuse to let anyone through for a significant amount of time I'd be called it and had etiquette explained to me.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

As long as our golf shirts are tailored, we are permitted to have them untucked. We thought of the facilities carefully when we designed and built the clubhouse when we moved from inside the racecourse. We asked our ladies if they wanted to join in all the mens competitions (we have certain board events which is open to both sections and winner takes all) and they declined. The men were asked (for equality) and unsurprisingly didn't want to play in the ladies events.

We still have traditional ladies morning on a Tuesday. It is still an integral part of the weekly diary in the same way as the roll ups are (women aren't complaining they can't get out from 10-11 on a Thursday or early on a Saturday/Sunday when some of the roll ups play but they are open to play) and the men and new male members know when to avoid.

The vast majority of our ladies are happy to let faster groups through (yes there are a few stubborn ones but I think they are integral to most clubs) and so it's never been an issue playing behind them. The ladies section also do an awful lot of work for the club behind the scenes keeping the clubhouse tidy (doing repairs) and volunteering to help at the big male events like Captains Day. In essence they are an integral part of the club and we'd be in a mess without them. I find the OP's post dated and perhaps there is a baited hook being dangled

 

[Liverbirdie]

As a male I have to do certain things to play golf at my club. I have to have my shirt tucked in. I have to have a collar on my shirt. I have to have fitted shorts that cannot be too short or too long. Yet it seems to be a free for all and women can dress as they please. What's that all about?

I'm also banned from playing at a certain time in the middle of the week. And the women refuse to let me through when they are holding me up after their allocated start times. For some reason they have to stay together in a pack hacking the ball 20yards each time they attempt to hit the ball. I am sure if I took 5 or 6 hours to complete a round and didn't let people through as a matter of principle something would be said.

The women also got access to the men's tournaments now. Which I have no problem with at all. But why can't I play in their midweek tournaments from a male tee? As they have no handicap limit surely rather than calling it the women's competition why not name is the high handicapper's comp?

The women have even had a toilet built at the halfway point which the men are now allowed to use! Whilst I can go for a wizz in the bushes if I need a crap am I expected to do that publically simply because I am a man?

I wondered if anyone else's club had this sort of sex discrimination? I'm not going to war to wear 3/4 length trousers and sleeveless tops. But if the women don't have to tuck their shirts in then I fail to see why I should. If your club has had these problems has anyone fixed it? I'm sorely tempted to claim to be a transitioning women so I can get the benefits which are denied to me simply because I was born with a penis.

Whereabouts is the penis fitted? Asking for a friend.

 

[bobmac]

I was genuinely looking for answers.

Did you know the rules/dress code before you joined the club?

 

[sammyboy]

Did you know the rules/dress code before you joined the club?

Sort off. The dress code doesn't really distinguish between men and women - on paper. But if I rocked up with my shirt untucked etc something would be said. In fact it has been said to a mate of mine. We pointed to the lady captain and it ended with huffing and puffing about it being different. It's an unwritten rule that the ladies can dress however they want - or perhaps the rules are just not enforced. I'd rather not fall out with the pro and his assistants over it as they are top guys - so play along. They get trouble if they let the boys get away with not following the code, but would get grief if they started enforcing it on the women. Not fair on them at all.

Side note - I use that rule in my favour as well. When it's open if I want to take my partner for a drink or a meal in the clubhouse I can do without her having to rigidly follow the dress code. So I'm not as interested in making women dress up like the men, as much as letting the men dress how they feel comfortable as well. For my partner she can wear smart jeans and a nice top untucked - and she wouldn't want to go with me for a drink if she was made to dress up in a certain way which isn't her style.

The other stuff I wasn't aware of until I became a member. Don't get me wrong - I don't feel strongly enough about it to leave. Although I don't mind speaking my mind either.

 

[timd77]

I was genuinely looking for answers.

1. I'm sorry but what about the design of a shirt means it should be tucked in? Many women chose to tuck shirts in so I think the idea that there is no clothing that women can wear is fatally flawed. Men can also purchase polo shirts that are designed not to be tucked in (as in they are too short) - they simply cannot wear them. What it seems you mean is some women chose to buy shirts knowing they don't have to tuck them in...

2. I accept women should have priority. But again I don't see why you need a gender-specific toilet if you can only afford one... Why not simply say anyone can use it. There is only one toiler in there so it's not like anyone will be exposing themselves to the opposite sex.

3. New golfers are the butt of jokes. Rubbish golfers are the butt of jokes. Old golfers are the butt of jokes. I don't know a single person who would make jokes about a women which they wouldn't make about a man. If I duff my drive I expected some ridicule. If I take 3 to get out of a bunker the same. If I hit a nice shot I also might get a compliment. Same for boys and girls. So no need to seperate.

At my club there are no times reserved for children. So I can't comment on that.

4. I agree it's not okay. But any comments to the committee of the pro shop get 'yeah we know'. But nothing is gone about it. If I chose to refuse to let anyone through for a significant amount of time I'd be called it and had etiquette explained to me.

As a male I have to do certain things to play golf at my club. I have to have my shirt tucked in. I have to have a collar on my shirt. I have to have fitted shorts that cannot be too short or too long. Yet it seems to be a free for all and women can dress as they please. What's that all about?

I'm also banned from playing at a certain time in the middle of the week. And the women refuse to let me through when they are holding me up after their allocated start times. For some reason they have to stay together in a pack hacking the ball 20yards each time they attempt to hit the ball. I am sure if I took 5 or 6 hours to complete a round and didn't let people through as a matter of principle something would be said.

The women also got access to the men's tournaments now. Which I have no problem with at all. But why can't I play in their midweek tournaments from a male tee? As they have no handicap limit surely rather than calling it the women's competition why not name is the high handicapper's comp?

The women have even had a toilet built at the halfway point which the men are now allowed to use! Whilst I can go for a wizz in the bushes if I need a crap am I expected to do that publically simply because I am a man?

I wondered if anyone else's club had this sort of sex discrimination? I'm not going to war to wear 3/4 length trousers and sleeveless tops. But if the women don't have to tuck their shirts in then I fail to see why I should. If your club has had these problems has anyone fixed it? I'm sorely tempted to claim to be a transitioning women so I can get the benefits which are denied to me simply because I was born with a penis.

There speaks a man looking at things from the point of view of a sex which has been dominant since the dawning of time.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

Side note - I use that rule in my favour as well. When it's open if I want to take my partner for a drink or a meal in the clubhouse I can do without her having to rigidly follow the dress code. So I'm not as interested in making women dress up like the men, as much as letting the men dress how they feel comfortable as well. For my partner she can wear smart jeans and a nice top untucked - and she wouldn't want to go with me for a drink if she was made to dress up in a certain way which isn't her style.

So you're happy for you're partner to ignore any dress code rules, but not lady golfers?
Sound's sexist to me.
I'm surprised you let her out of the house, what with all that cleaning, ironing and other housework you probably consider "womens work"..

 

[sammyboy]

So you're happy for you're partner to ignore any dress code rules, but not lady golfers?
Sound's sexist to me.
I'm surprised you let her out of the house, what with all that cleaning, ironing and other housework you probably consider "womens work"..

I'd rather there were no silly rules in the first place. But if they have to stay I think they should be applied fairly and equally. If that makes me sexist in your eyes then I can only suggest you book an appointment with an optician.

I think having a drink in a bar or a bite to eat is totally different to a sporting dress code. If you feel differently then I'm not sure we are on the same level.

The house work is currently being done by me as I'm on furlough and she is working in a hospital. But I'll pass on to her that some bloke on the internet thinks she should be doing these things.

 

[KenL]

All of these, frankly, ridiculous dress code rules (long socks, no black socks, no cargo shorts, tuck your shirt in...) make me embarrassed to be a golfer. Whether it is a club "rule" or not should not matter.

Golf clubs and the game itself is in decline and it will only get worse if these pathetic old fashioned attitudes are not brought to an end.

To the OP, all golfers should have the same guidelines with regard to dress or perhaps none at all.

How good would it be if clubs said something like "dress as you wish so you can play your best & enjoy your game"?

 

[harpo_72]

The shirts tucked in issue has been raised on a fair few threads recently.
Most clubs are quite clear that shirts designed to be worn untucked (men and women) can be. I think this will progress further, let’s be honest, in the past the physiques of the pros weren’t what they are now (generally), so an untucked xxl shirt looked horrific.

Every shirt I own is designed that way... I have spent my life having people tell me to tuck my shirt in.
I think a button either side that connects to your trouser resolves the issue .. but many shirts are not long enough in the body unless they specify it.

 

[Slab]

@sammyboy
Assuming you are not in the minority at your club on these matters why not just bring them up at the AGM and the members will vote in the change/s, all your cares solved in an hour (except maybe not being invited through by any gender of player)

If you are in the minority, its your fellow club members that do not want the changes you wish to see

 

[SasquatchSQ]

I was genuinely looking for answers.

1. I'm sorry but what about the design of a shirt means it should be tucked in? Many women chose to tuck shirts in so I think the idea that there is no clothing that women can wear is fatally flawed. Men can also purchase polo shirts that are designed not to be tucked in (as in they are too short) - they simply cannot wear them. What it seems you mean is some women chose to buy shirts knowing they don't have to tuck them in...

2. I accept women should have priority. But again I don't see why you need a gender-specific toilet if you can only afford one... Why not simply say anyone can use it. There is only one toiler in there so it's not like anyone will be exposing themselves to the opposite sex.

3. New golfers are the butt of jokes. Rubbish golfers are the butt of jokes. Old golfers are the butt of jokes. I don't know a single person who would make jokes about a women which they wouldn't make about a man. If I duff my drive I expected some ridicule. If I take 3 to get out of a bunker the same. If I hit a nice shot I also might get a compliment. Same for boys and girls. So no need to seperate.

At my club there are no times reserved for children. So I can't comment on that.

4. I agree it's not okay. But any comments to the committee of the pro shop get 'yeah we know'. But nothing is gone about it. If I chose to refuse to let anyone through for a significant amount of time I'd be called it and had etiquette explained to me.

Like I said - if you're genuinely looking for answers, maybe don't call anyone willing to help you a "white knight" - if you're going to do that, you can't then complain if people assume you're a sexist dinosaur.

Traditionally, men's polo shirts are designed to be tucked in, if worn in a traditional/formal setting. It's like how my club specifically states that peaked hats can't be worn backwards - they're making sure they're worn in the traditional way. Seems silly to me, but it's relatively common IMO. Women's blouses are often more tightly fitted and shorter, and as such are traditionally not tucked into trousers/skirt/shorts - you obviously can buy women's clothes that are meant to be tucked in, but a lot are not. Hence the rule.

Women have historically often been excluded from membership/playing of golf courses completely, so I think that's why there's traditional splits in competitions etc - the men demanded it initially. I can certainly see how that's led to feelings on their part of being made to feel unwelcome, and therefore wanting to maintain that separation. My club has a lady as the overall captain this year, and I couldn't believe the amount of complaints it brought about.

 

[howbow88]

All of these, frankly, ridiculous dress code rules (long socks, no black socks, no cargo shorts, tuck your shirt in...) make me embarrassed to be a golfer. Whether it is a club "rule" or not should not matter.

Golf clubs and the game itself is in decline and it will only get worse if these pathetic old fashioned attitudes are not brought to an end.

To the OP, all golfers should have the same guidelines with regard to dress or perhaps none at all.

How good would it be if clubs said something like "dress as you wish so you can play your best & enjoy your game"?

I await the response of 'I don't know anyone who wouldn't play golf because of a dress code.' Whilst absolutely ignoring the image that these archaic rules give the sport of golf.

 

[Griffsters]

I actually thought it was a spoof post when I first read it, but then realised its golf we are talking about.

This won't go down well but IMHO, when you have such entrenched privilege somewhere (like Golf clubs) it takes positive action to change things. Many will perceive these changes as unfair as their privilege is the norm to them.

Some of the things mentioned I can understand but generally don't require a great deal of thought to understand reasoning, even if you don't agree with it.

 

[Crazyface]

I'm backing the OP! I think I've posted much the same in the past. And it beggars belief that there are so many men on here that are too quick to have a pop at what is a genuine question from the OP. He's only pointing out the inequalities at his club. Women are allowed much more leeway than the men. If they don't like something they kick off and men being men we back down. When really we should be saying, "we cannot have one rule for one and not another". If women gain a change in the club rules then this rule should then be applied across the board. That's all the OP is saying. I agree with him 100%. And if you don't then YOU are being sexist towards your fellow MEN. There really is no arguement on this.

 

[Refurbished2020]

The only valid issue is playing through, and that is a unisex problem. Since most (?) clubs won't do anything about it even if you make a formal complaint, raise it at the AGM etc, just grit your teeth and sulk like most of us.

Shirts out! All for that, especially for those of a fuller figure. A 'nicely' draped shirt beats that midline bulge.

And at the risk of lynching, I raise you stretch pants.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm not that keen on seeing a bloke's exposed midriff when he does a full following through - or indeed a bloke's 'bum crack' when picking up his ball. However... I guess that's me simply showing favouritism.

 

[SasquatchSQ]

I'm backing the OP! I think I've posted much the same in the past. And it beggars belief that there are so many men on here that are too quick to have a pop at what is a genuine question from the OP. He's only pointing out the inequalities at his club. Women are allowed much more leeway than the men. If they don't like something they kick off and men being men we back down. When really we should be saying, "we cannot have one rule for one and not another". If women gain a change in the club rules then this rule should then be applied across the board. That's all the OP is saying. I agree with him 100%. And if you don't then YOU are being sexist towards your fellow MEN. There really is no arguement on this.

I'm sure you'd be allowed to wear a shirt untucked if it's a blouse that is meant to be worn like that.

 

[sammyboy]

I'm sure you'd be allowed to wear a shirt untucked if it's a blouse that is meant to be worn like that.

Im sure you could not at many clubs including my own.

The rules are men must have a shirt tucked in. If i rock up in a shirt that cant be tucked in then it would cause embaressment for all and id be asked to purchase one from the pro shop. In reality this woukdnt happen as i dont want to put the pro shop in that position or have a falling out with members of the committee.

I dont agree with it all. But i respect the people enough to not cause them problems.

Tbh id rather more women played golf. Especially younger women. Id also rather more young men played. At my club as a 30something im one of the younger people. And i can see why. Its not just the silly rules but the outdated ideas... today i woke up to the newsletter with the ladies committee saying they will be cleaning the outdoor furniture! The club are also paying a company to do social media marketting for them as they want new members... shame they didnt ask me as a younger member as id have done it for free saving them enough to build a male toilet or offer free lessons to new younger golfers.

Contrary to what many think... im far from sexist or anti females. Id love my partner to play golf, but she would be having none of it if she as a girl was expected to clean furniture for the men to sit on. She is a former national swimmer going to the commonwealth games, is under 30 and does triathlons for fun, she has a good enough job to pay fees and be a decent member. But she would be having none of boys vs girls rubbish with segregation etc. She sees herself as an equal to anyone, quite rightly. And im humble enough to admit with her fitness i reckon with some practise she could wipe the floor with me on a golf course. She has my old driver and goes to the range with me, and hits it straighter than me and further than plenty of the older men - carrying 200 yards on the range. Its a shame imo.

 

[chrisd]

One of the reasons that clubs have fairly strict dress codes is simply to stop the golfers from turning up in a string vest and jeans etc. There are always the golfers who will dress in chinos that they change into in the locker room and have not been washed in the last couple of months etc etc so, its sensible to insist on proper golf wear just as a cricketer or footballer would wear clothing suitable for their sport. If golf clubs have one problem is their failure to review their rule from time to time imo as to what's acceptable.