Rating and Slope

[clubchamp98]

Given that the CR and BR are currently different for men and women and the Slope is therefore different and that course and shot length make the major contribution to Ratings.
The Rating formulae would have to be appropriately modified to allow for the full range of strokes needed to encompass all the potential landing/targets that both 'old' and 'young' male or female players achieve.
I suspect that it may result in 3 digit HIs.

So it’s got nothing to do with ability.

As for modifying the formula it should have been done from the start among other things!

 

[clubchamp98]

I'm sure that is true, but there are also many people in that age range who do hand in loads of scores. I don't know any that really need the max index increased from 54.

And so I also don't suddenly see people needing triple digit handicaps if they were gender neutral. That is absurd. Unless we are saying a lady who currently gets 40 something shots suddenly needs 100+ shots?

Yes and let’s not forget the red tees would still be there for those who want to use them.

If they played White/ yellow tees the slope would give them the shots they need.
Just like it does now!

 

[Alan Clifford]

I'm sure that is true, but there are also many people in that age range who do hand in loads of scores. I don't know any that really need the max index increased from 54.

And so I also don't suddenly see people needing triple digit handicaps if they were gender neutral. That is absurd. Unless we are saying a lady who currently gets 40 something shots suddenly needs 100+ shots?

In my example above (post #37) a 54 handicap lady would need a 64 handicap using the mens ratings.

 

[rulefan]

In my example above (post #37) a 54 handicap lady would need a 64 handicap using the mens ratings.

But the rating parameters are quite different for women. Women simply do not hit the ball as far. The system in effect allows for about 2 putting strokes (on a straightforward green) (ie 36+ of the CR). The majority of the rest are down to how many strokes are needed to get to the green. The minority is the value associated with 'obstacles'.
Take your longest tees and total the number of strokes needed on each hole by the following two players.
1) Man Scratch: Drive 250. Subsequent strokes 220
2) Woman Bogey: Drive 150. Subsequent strokes 130

I have calculated that our white tees would take 36 strokes for 1) and 57 for 2)

 

[Alan Clifford]

But the rating parameters are quite different for women. Women simply do not hit the ball as far. The system in effect allows for about 2 putting strokes (on a straightforward green) (ie 36+ of the CR). The majority of the rest are down to how many strokes are needed to get to the green. The minority is the value associated with 'obstacles'.
Take your longest tees and total the number of strokes needed on each hole by the following two players.
1) Man Scratch: Drive 250. Subsequent strokes 220
2) Woman Bogey: Drive 150. Subsequent strokes 130

I have calculated that our white tees would take 36 strokes for 1) and 57 for 2)

I should imagine there are a lot of women who hit the ball a lot further than me.

 

[wjemather]

I should imagine there are a lot of women who hit the ball a lot further than me.

So what? Ratings are not based on how far Alan Clifford hits a golf ball.

 

[Alan Clifford]

So what? Ratings are not based on how far Alan Clifford hits a golf ball.

Spit the human population in two differently.

age
young scratch drive 250
old bogey 150

or by fitness

fit scratch 250
fat bogey 150

Why do you focus so much on genitalia?

 

[Swango1980]

But the rating parameters are quite different for women. Women simply do not hit the ball as far. The system in effect allows for about 2 putting strokes (on a straightforward green) (ie 36+ of the CR). The majority of the rest are down to how many strokes are needed to get to the green. The minority is the value associated with 'obstacles'.
Take your longest tees and total the number of strokes needed on each hole by the following two players.
1) Man Scratch: Drive 250. Subsequent strokes 220
2) Woman Bogey: Drive 150. Subsequent strokes 130

I have calculated that our white tees would take 36 strokes for 1) and 57 for 2)

Question:

Is it possible to have a mixed gender singles stroke play event currently, where the course handicaps can be adjusted based on Course Ratings for genders?

And if so, in such events can men and women simply go out and play, use the adjusted handicap at the end to take from their gross score, and then place themselves on a mixed leaderboard?

 

[rulefan]

Question:

Is it possible to have a mixed gender singles stroke play event currently, where the course handicaps can be adjusted based on Course Ratings for genders?

And if so, in such events can men and women simply go out and play, use the adjusted handicap at the end to take from their gross score, and then place themselves on a mixed leaderboard?

Yes, provided the tees being used have been rated for both men & women. See Rule 6.2b

 

[Swango1980]

Yes, provided the tees being used have been rated for both men & women. See Rule 6.2b

Good. So, with all the ratings in place, handicaps can then be adjusted so that men and women can compete.

How many adjustments are you aware off that has resulted in ladies getting 3 digit handicaps?

If we already are able to manipulate handicaps so that men and women compete together from sane tees, why can't we just handicap everyone the same from the start?

 

[Backache]

Spit the human population in two differently.

age
young scratch drive 250
old bogey 150

or by fitness

fit scratch 250
fat bogey 150

Why do you focus so much on genitalia?

Age and fitness are continuous variables. Sex is binary.

 

[Swango1980]

Age and fitness are continuous variables. Sex is binary.

I didn't realise many older golfers had the ability to reverse the aging process, so that they could still be fairly handicapped using the same parameters as young golfers

Maybe we need different handicap parameters for all binary differences. Height would be a good place to start maybe. Different CRs and BR's for golfers under 4.5ft, 5ft, 5.5ft, 6ft, 6.5ft,,etc

Besides, I've seen plenty of YouTube discussions over the last few years that suggest sex isn't binary

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I didn't realise many older golfers had the ability to reverse the aging process, so that they could still be fairly handicapped using the same parameters as young golfers

Maybe we need different handicap parameters for all binary differences. Height would be a good place to start maybe. Different CRs and BR's for golfers under 4.5ft, 5ft, 5.5ft, 6ft, 6.5ft,,etc

Besides, I've seen plenty of YouTube discussions over the last few years that suggest sex isn't binary

They don’t, but how many do anything to retain or improve strength and flexibility?

I know a few who complain about it and have a lot of spare time, but spend most of it sat watching tv or in the club bar.

 

[wjemather]

Maybe we need different handicap parameters for all binary differences. Height would be a good place to start maybe. Different CRs and BR's for golfers under 4.5ft, 5ft, 5.5ft, 6ft, 6.5ft,,etc

???

 

[Swango1980]

???

Apologies, I should have said non-variables within adults. It was early in morning

 

[Alan Clifford]

Question:

Is it possible to have a mixed gender singles stroke play event currently, where the course handicaps can be adjusted based on Course Ratings for genders?

And if so, in such events can men and women simply go out and play, use the adjusted handicap at the end to take from their gross score, and then place themselves on a mixed leaderboard?

CR - par is already in the course handicaps now.

 

[rulefan]

Good. So, with all the ratings in place, handicaps can then be adjusted so that men and women can compete.

How many adjustments are you aware off that has resulted in ladies getting 3 digit handicaps?

If we already are able to manipulate handicaps so that men and women compete together from sane tees, why can't we just handicap everyone the same from the start?

It's all in 6.2b
HIs cannot be > 54
Where have I mentioned manipulating?

 

[wjemather]

Spit the human population in two differently.

age
young scratch drive 250
old bogey 150

or by fitness

fit scratch 250
fat bogey 150

Why do you focus so much on genitalia?

There remains a clear and significant difference in strength and distance between men and women throughout the range of ages, heights, weights, fitness, and anything else that has been mentioned.
No such clear difference exists between a 49 year old and a 50 year old, someone who is 5'11' and someone who is 6'0", etc.

Fitness/fatness is not a linear progression so would require continuous assessment of golfers - presumably before every round to ensure validity of their handicaps.

 

[Alan Clifford]

So what? Ratings are not based on how far Alan Clifford hits a golf ball.

Given we've spit the golfing world into two based on how far the best in each group can hit the ball, I want to be in the short hitting group. Oh wait, my handicap would go down if I used their ratings. Drat.
The more I think about it, the more ridiculous the testicle versus ovaries spit becomes. I guess it's just out-of-date misogyny - an attempt keep the women in their place and away from our game.

 

[wjemather]

Apologies, I should have said non-variables within adults. It was early in morning

Age, height, weight, etc. are all variables that change continuously throughout life.
Men and women remain constant (in general).