WHS Part 2

[IanMcC]

Comps don't need to be finalized. They are taken as you enter your score into the psi.

This is a little troubling for me. In just about every comp that I finalise, someone has entered their scores incorrectly on the computer. It is usually 'finger stutter', where the same score is entered for 2 or 3 holes and the player has not noticed. If the handicap index is updated before finalising then multiple corrections will have to take place. Corrections which may well go unnoticed, if we are relying on the software so much.
Also, in a later post rulefan, you state that the rules at present demand swift score entry. I was under the impression that this is actually entering your signed card in the box, not entering scores electronically.

 

[rulefan]

What do you mean English or Scottish boyo??

Ok, serious reply... if current data sets exist in usable format it would be daft not to make use of them. (Which probably means a whole new set of numbers! )

Sorry, I meant the England Golf and Scottish Golf CDH systems. I thought Scotland Golf was what I now realise is Scottish Golf.

All the national bodies have playing records going back many years. CONGU has devised an algorithm which takes the records and calculates a WHS handicap (8/20) using the Course Rating (ie SSS) and Slope of the course/tees according to the WHS formula.

 

[rulefan]

This is a little troubling for me. In just about every comp that I finalise, someone has entered their scores incorrectly on the computer. It is usually 'finger stutter', where the same score is entered for 2 or 3 holes and the player has not noticed. If the handicap index is updated before finalising then multiple corrections will have to take place. Corrections which may well go unnoticed, if we are relying on the software so much.
Also, in a later post rulefan, you state that the rules at present demand swift score entry. I was under the impression that this is actually entering your signed card in the box, not entering scores electronically.

Clubs will have to move into this century and invest in the appropriate technology. There is no real reason for the great majority of players not to enter scores immediately after completing their round. But for those players who are resistant, for whatever reason, they can ask others in their group to enter their score. In my club I would guess 1 in 10 seniors ask another player to do it while he gets the drinks from the bar. According to my wife, all the ladies enter their own scores without difficulty. Apps already exist here for entering hole by hole scores in real time. The RoG still demand cards so the handicap sec will still be able to check if necessary.
Re your last point, why not have a PSI next to the box?

 

[Swango1980]

I understand Ian's point. Occasionally we've had a winner of the comp end up with about 90 points, because they entered their points rather than gross score. More often, they've just incorrectly typed their score, blame fat fingers, system being slower than they anticipated, etc.

I think the bigger point is not clubs moving into the next century, its ALL golfers moving into the next century

 

[Old Skier]

I understand Ian's point. Occasionally we've had a winner of the comp end up with about 90 points, because they entered their points rather than gross score. More often, they've just incorrectly typed their score, blame fat fingers, system being slower than they anticipated, etc.

I think the bigger point is not clubs moving into the next century, its ALL golfers moving into the next century

Some of us have problems with counties moving into the correct century. At times the upload and download speeds result n the PSI and main system not talking to each other and it's only when we go and check the main pc to close a comp we notice that many of the scores haven't been uploaded into the system.

Technology is great when it's fully functional but the relevant authority needs to have a plan b.

 

[Aussie Swinger]

I didn't think he implied it. I think you have miss-interpreted the "you can log in" part, he wasn't specifically speaking directly to you it was a general you. He was just giving an example of what the Australians currently do and what the UK can expect when the system goes live.

Yep, sorry, I did not mean as in uk, I was using Aus system as a close example of how people can check their scores on our system

 

[rulefan]

Just to describe broadly how the system will work in the UK (Scotland may be an exception).
The ISVs (HandicapMaster, ClubV1, Intelligent Golf et al) will provide the front end service supplying the competition management and entry, score entry, membership, bar etc (as they do now). The raw scores will be uploaded to the WHS master system for handicap processing at the end of the day. After all the number crunching, the adjusted handicap records will be down loaded to the club's system. This, together with the Course Rating and Slope of each set of tees, will allow the player's course handicap to be shown on demand or when the player checks in to a competition (together with printing their card or allowing them to hold it on a smartphone or gps device).
I understand Scottish Golf are going UDI and are working on having their own common front end for all clubs. How this will interact with their membership and other ISV systems I don't know. But I don't think the ISVs are happy and suspect members will wonder who is going to pay

Edit: I also believe the ISVs are getting the Technical Spec for the first time, tomorrow

 

[Aussie Swinger]

To be fair to him, from post number 37, I would read that as a general you, rather than a direct you. After all, he was comparing the future system to the current aussie system all along.

Probably more of an issue with the English language. Perhaps replacing the word you with one or we may have clarified it.

Sorry, I did mean all the way through as a general ‘you’ or more like ‘you will be able to once your system is up’. Hope that cclears that one up now.

 

[Aussie Swinger]

I’ll also take a photo of the scorecard and post it up here over the coming days so you can see how easy it is to enter scores and that it has a ‘double check’ system to ensure the score you put down is correct. I’ll also explain how the scanner eliminates mistakes unless you and your playing partners are blatant cheats...

 

[upsidedown]

Having played under the NZ version which wasn't that far away from the Oz one AS has given a very good insight to how it will work

 

[RangeMonkey]

Is there anywhere we can lookup course and slope ratings for UK clubs? Googling doesn’t bring up anything obvious...

 

[Springveldt]

Is there anywhere we can lookup course and slope ratings for UK clubs? Googling doesn’t bring up anything obvious...

https://ncrdb.usga.org/NCRDB/

I know it says that it's USGA but just bang your club name in there and if it's been rated it will show up. You only need to put the club name in and then click submit, you don't have to fill the others in.

 

[IanMcC]

Just to describe broadly how the system will work in the UK (Scotland may be an exception).
The ISVs (HandicapMaster, ClubV1, Intelligent Golf et al) will provide the front end service supplying the competition management and entry, score entry, membership, bar etc (as they do now). The raw scores will be uploaded to the WHS master system for handicap processing at the end of the day. After all the number crunching, the adjusted handicap records will be down loaded to the club's system. This, together with the Course Rating and Slope of each set of tees, will allow the player's course handicap to be shown on demand or when the player checks in to a competition (together with printing their card or allowing them to hold it on a smartphone or gps device).

Thanks. Just to be clear, will ClubV1 now finalise the comp and publish results to HDID 'at the end of the day', or will the M&H Secretary still intervene checking and finalising the result? I assume ClubV1 will only update handicap records, not post the actual result.
Our PSI terminal is right next to the card box, btw, but you cant twist people's arm to enter the result, can you? I suppose it will just have to be part of the learning process for golfers who continually don't enter scores on PSI. I wanted to bring in a Code of Conduct penalty for continual offenders, but to be honest, the hardware is so unreliable that it would not be fair. (We have 3 comps a week, and in a year of processing cards, there has only ever been one comp where all sign ins have entered their scores on the computer.)

 

[upsidedown]

We used to have a problem with scores not being entered but a new committee issued new rules surrounding competition entry and obligations to enter scores . Have been a few offenders but once they have had a warning e mail they've not re offended 😉

 

[Aussie Swinger]

 

[Aussie Swinger]

Ok, so here goes again, I’m talking ‘generic‘ as in this is what the card should look something like the image above. Mark actual gross scores by way of an X in the left hand columns. Write the gross score down for player and marker as per usual cards. As you can see the software populates your name name handicap and unique ID NUMBER once you hand over your entry fee to the pro. No need to work out handicap based on slope, what you think your last handicap was, ‘should I be off twelve as I think I was 11.4 before last comp and I don’t think it’s been updated’ questions should trouble you anymore. The system is always bang up to date and live, no matter what course you play, it will adjust your handicap for slope.
end of the round, tot up your scores and work out your net or stableford manually as you do nowadays. Then go to to the computer, it scans your card and knows who you are off the barcode on the write handside. It will automatically calculate gross , score, minus handicap and will show you your net score if a medal or stableford score as the pro would input prior what type that comp is for that given day. You then have the chance to agree, go back and correct your manual marking if incorrect and then accept and post ( the computer effectively gives you a score . Live leaderboard updates instantly and can even work out div1 or div 2 should that be the case 9Aussie is split into 3 cats 1, 2 and 3)
you have to trust me when I say I see probably 80% less mistakes with scores input via this system than when I was in the Uk entering each score one by one. The computer checks the X’s against the figure you put in the box ( eg you write 5, but put X in the 6 column, it will ask you to confirm which is correct, the written 5 or X 6.
Hope this helps, this is the Aussies system, it is only very similar to how WHS will work. It’s not live in the Uk presently. Note ,when I say ‘you’ I mean that as an all encompassing you for whoever takes the time to read it.
again, happy to take Q’s from anyone.
sorry, one more thing, it tells you which holes you get ‘strokes’ at IAW handicap as you can see from the pic

 

[IanMcC]

Thanks for the update, Aussie Swinger. There is no way that my club will invest in all of this hardware, and that will be the case for most clubs in our area. It took me all my time to get cash for a replacement touchscreen from them recently. Im sure we will sort something out nearer the time.

 

[rulefan]

Thanks. Just to be clear, will ClubV1 now finalise the comp and publish results to HDID 'at the end of the day', or will the M&H Secretary still intervene checking and finalising the result? I assume ClubV1 will only update handicap records, not post the actual result.
Our PSI terminal is right next to the card box, btw, but you cant twist people's arm to enter the result, can you? I suppose it will just have to be part of the learning process for golfers who continually don't enter scores on PSI. I wanted to bring in a Code of Conduct penalty for continual offenders, but to be honest, the hardware is so unreliable that it would not be fair. (We have 3 comps a week, and in a year of processing cards, there has only ever been one comp where all sign ins have entered their scores on the computer.)

ClubV1 (or any ISV system) will not automatically close the comp. That will be up to the committee.
As AussieSwinger says, the score entry will update a live leader board using the significantly more sophisticated ISV software displays. All scores (that have been entered so far including any supplementary scores) will be sent to the WHS system overnight regardless of whether or not the comp has been closed. Any late scores will therefore not contribute to nor be affected by the daily Playing Conditions Calculation. The WHS is not itself interested in competitions, only scores.

My committee, as have many others, have a disciplinary procedure for players who do not either return cards or not use the PSI. In our case, one offence gets a reminder, a second gets a warning, a third gets a prohibition from play for a month. If they have a history of offending, they may be suspended. Different clubs have different scales of penalty of course.
I don't think we have had to impose more than one prohibition. All our members who are wary of tech simply ask another member to do it for them.

'All this hardware' is not that much and I don't see that you will have much practical option to taking the minimum - a basic PC workstation. The card printer is not mandatory but the whole process makes life much easier for members and administrators. Once members realise what can be done you will be under pressure to catch up with the world.
I heard there may be financial assistance available but I have not seen confirmation.

 

[robinthehood]

Ok, so here goes again, I’m talking ‘generic‘ as in this is what the card should look something like the image above. Mark actual gross scores by way of an X in the left hand columns. Write the gross score down for player and marker as per usual cards. As you can see the software populates your name name handicap and unique ID NUMBER once you hand over your entry fee to the pro. No need to work out handicap based on slope, what you think your last handicap was, ‘should I be off twelve as I think I was 11.4 before last comp and I don’t think it’s been updated’ questions should trouble you anymore. The system is always bang up to date and live, no matter what course you play, it will adjust your handicap for slope.
end of the round, tot up your scores and work out your net or stableford manually as you do nowadays. Then go to to the computer, it scans your card and knows who you are off the barcode on the write handside. It will automatically calculate gross , score, minus handicap and will show you your net score if a medal or stableford score as the pro would input prior what type that comp is for that given day. You then have the chance to agree, go back and correct your manual marking if incorrect and then accept and post ( the computer effectively gives you a score . Live leaderboard updates instantly and can even work out div1 or div 2 should that be the case 9Aussie is split into 3 cats 1, 2 and 3)
you have to trust me when I say I see probably 80% less mistakes with scores input via this system than when I was in the Uk entering each score one by one. The computer checks the X’s against the figure you put in the box ( eg you write 5, but put X in the 6 column, it will ask you to confirm which is correct, the written 5 or X 6.
Hope this helps, this is the Aussies system, it is only very similar to how WHS will work. It’s not live in the Uk presently. Note ,when I say ‘you’ I mean that as an all encompassing you for whoever takes the time to read it.
again, happy to take Q’s from anyone.
sorry, one more thing, it tells you which holes you get ‘strokes’ at IAW handicap as you can see from the pic

I like the scanner idea, you'll have the old boys spitting feathers here though with modern tech 😂😂

 

[louise_a]

I notice that your (stroke) Index has decimal points, is it dynamically changed ?