Course Handicap

[sunshine]

I have moaned about it already but our ratings recently went down. The next Stableford comp was won with 37 points, joint second-place were on 35.

I guess the only way to judge it is how well do your handicaps travel.

 

[The Squirrel]

I played with a member at a local parkland course once, and he asked what the slope was for my course. He then said “that means my course is harder than yours”.

Obviously that’s an incorrect assessment. It means its harder for a bogey golfer… The course rating for this place was like -3 whereas its +1.5 at my course.

I tried to think logically about what would cause that slope rating though… all I could really think of was:
My course? 0 ponds
His course… Lots of ponds

For a bogey golfer, ponds are a nightmare. Has almost 0 impact on a scratch golfer. Just by virtue of there being no ponds, a bogey golfer is probably saving a couple of shots a round?

I couldn’t think why else though.

Is my logic sound?

Course design in general on the same principles I suppose. Most fairway bunkers at 220 vs most at 280 would be hazards or irrelevances to two different groups. Similarly, dogleg at 240 curtails the scratch hitter while typical bogey player can blaze away. dogleg at 300 no issue to (non-Rory) scratch golfer but forces the shorter hitter to take two shots before reaching the bend to go round…

 

[Orikoru]

I guess the only way to judge it is how well do your handicaps travel.

We discussed it before, but our tigers/foxes etc teams cleaned up last year and that was before the latest course rating changes.

 

[sjw]

We discussed it before, but our tigers/foxes etc teams cleaned up last year and that was before the latest course rating changes.

So now, with your course rated easier, you'll all have higher handicaps and won't clean up. Correct?

 

[Orikoru]

So now, with your course rated easier, you'll all have higher handicaps and won't clean up. Correct?

No - you have it backwards. Yes our handicaps will go up, but that would make it even easier to win more away matches, assuming handicaps are used, since we'd be getting 1 or 2 more shots than we should do.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

No - you have it backwards. Yes our handicaps will go up, but that would make it even easier to win more away matches, assuming handicaps are used, since we'd be getting 1 or 2 more shots than we should do.

Team matches are scratch I think. Seniors might not be but I think regular ones are. Not 100%, not relevant to me, but I think that is how it works.

 

[sjw]

No - you have it backwards. Yes our handicaps will go up, but that would make it even easier to win more away matches, assuming handicaps are used, since we'd be getting 1 or 2 more shots than we should do.

Oh of course, duh. It's early!

 

[Swango1980]

Team matches are scratch I think. Seniors might not be but I think regular ones are. Not 100%, not relevant to me, but I think that is how it works.

In Lincolnshire there is both a Scratch League and a Handicap League for clubs to play in

 

[Orikoru]

Team matches are scratch I think. Seniors might not be but I think regular ones are. Not 100%, not relevant to me, but I think that is how it works.

I think the tigers team (lowest caps) does scratch matches, yes, but away teams still struggle with our greens so we win the vast majority of our home ties anyway. The foxes and rabbits matches will be handicap-based though I'm sure.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I’ll put this here as don’t want to open another WHS handicap thread.

It’s noticeable that at my place stableford comps tend not to be won with absurdly high (upper 40s+) points…mostly an occasional 43 or 44…but they are rarish, and 40+ pts for anyone is also fairly rare. I’ve wondered why, given all the whinging on here about bonkers stableford scores winning comps elsewhere - with us very rare.

We have just been remeasured and rerated. New ratings from 1st March.

White tees currently: CR 71.6; Slope 125
White tees rerated: CR 72.5; Slope 136

Maybe this accounts for ‘relatively’ low scoring at my track…and maybe suggests that the slope rating is way too high at courses where big points scores are normal.

And so off 7.7 my Course Handicap jumps from 8 to 10. That’ll help…and make it easier for me to cope with losing a 2.2 and a 5.4 in a few rounds time.

Our SI have also been reassessed and significantly changed…will make things interesting.

Big changes have come about as we will no longer have any gender-specific tees, and as a result have come up with a single set of indexes to accommodate ladies and gents abilities.

Just did a couple of quick calcs…

Looking at the 74 gross (off back tees) that gave me a diff of 2.2 and that I’m soon to lose - a 74 with new rating will give me a diff of 1.2 . Looking at it other way..I can equal my 2.2 with a gross 75. Not a huge help…but a help.

And my 5.4 from a 76 (off front tees) that is immediately following the 2.2…well with new front tee ratings it looks like a 77 will equal that.

Good news to help me get my home CH off back tees (will be 10) back to SFs. Still SFs (8) off front.

 

[jamielaing]

Just did a couple of quick calcs…

Looking at the 74 gross (off back tees) that gave me a diff of 2.2 and that I’m soon to lose - a 74 with new rating will give me a diff of 1.2 . Looking at it other way..I can equal my 2.2 with a gross 75. Not a huge help…but a help.

And my 5.4 from a 76 (off front tees) that is immediately following the 2.2…well with new front tee ratings it looks like a 77 will equal that.

Good news to help me get my home CH off back tees (will be 10) back to SFs. Still SFs (8) off front.

Would the changes not adjust your handicap relevant to the course rating now? So your Handicap Index will go down straight off the bat?

 

[Swango1980]

Would the changes not adjust your handicap relevant to the course rating now? So your Handicap Index will go down straight off the bat?

The handicap Index will be based on the 20 older scores, which are presumably all / mostly off the tees with the old ratings. Thus, course handicap will change, but it will be based on an Index that was calculated using the old ratings. I don't believe the changes to ratings are back dated, so that already submitted scores have their score differentials changed and the Index recalculated.

 

[D-S]

Would the changes not adjust your handicap relevant to the course rating now? So your Handicap Index will go down straight off the bat?

No because the rounds he played on the course before were on a course that had a different rating at the time when he played them.
This is why it is important to have courses rerated as soon as possible after significant changes are made otherwise you will be playing a wrongly rated course for a period of time and your differentials will not be correct so your HI won’t be either.

 

[jim8flog]

I have moaned about it already but our ratings recently went down. The next Stableford comp was won with 37 points, joint second-place were on 35.

So that is about right then, the person who won was just one better than handicap and the runners up were one worse than handicap.

 

[clubchamp98]

Team matches are scratch I think. Seniors might not be but I think regular ones are. Not 100%, not relevant to me, but I think that is how it works.

We have an inter club handicap and scratch team on a Friday with local clubs.

 

[Orikoru]

So that is about right then, the person who won was just one better than handicap and the runners up were one worse than handicap.

Would you not expect more than one person to better their handicap in a competition??

 

[jim8flog]

Would you not expect more than one person to better their handicap in a competition??

Not necessarily in a winter comp. Since course rating - par came in you cannot judge against comps prior to this.

In our January Saturday stableford 3 players were tied on on 37 points everybody else was worse than handicap.

 

[cliveb]

I think the tigers team (lowest caps) does scratch matches, yes, but away teams still struggle with our greens so we win the vast majority of our home ties anyway. The foxes and rabbits matches will be handicap-based though I'm sure.

OK, I left Grims Dyke in 2021, but as the former secretary of the Foxes section I can confirm that all Foxes competitions were handicap based. That includes the Abrey Cup knockout, Middlesex Foxes Championship, and all friendly matches. The Middlesex Foxes League is something new that started after I left, but I would be utterly gobsmacked if that wasn't also handicapped. (And as a former Rabbit, those too were always handicap based).
I *think* the Tigers had two divisions: Tigers A (scratch) and Tigers B (handicap), although since I was never good enough for any Tiger teams I can't say for sure.

 

[Orikoru]

OK, I left Grims Dyke in 2021, but as the former secretary of the Foxes section I can confirm that all Foxes competitions were handicap based. That includes the Abrey Cup knockout, Middlesex Foxes Championship, and all friendly matches. The Middlesex Foxes League is something new that started after I left, but I would be utterly gobsmacked if that wasn't also handicapped. (And as a former Rabbit, those too were always handicap based).
I *think* the Tigers had two divisions: Tigers A (scratch) and Tigers B (handicap), although since I was never good enough for any Tiger teams I can't say for sure.

Yeah you're probably right, there will be tigers handicap matches and also scratch team matches but our teams would be largely the same as we don't have many players below a 4 or 5 handicap anyway. My mate even got in the scratch team as a reserve once and he's off 11!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No because the rounds he played on the course before were on a course that had a different rating at the time when he played them.
This is why it is important to have courses rerated as soon as possible after significant changes are made otherwise you will be playing a wrongly rated course for a period of time and your differentials will not be correct so your HI won’t be either.

Our re-rating has been done asap after the most significant changes we’ve done seem to have settled down - one of them having some unexpected longer term impacts (changes around flood water management that were thought would only occasionally come into play, but at the moment given two years experience with them in place look to most likely be permanent features - ponds and transverse ditches).

Separately from 1st March all our tees become gender neutral and we have unified ladies/gents SIs. The latter has produced some SI changes that will no doubt be discussed and debated at length by members