Alan Clifford
Well-known member
Rating and Slope
- Thread starter Danboy
- Start date
rulefan
Tour Winner
Exactly
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
No need to apologise. I thank you for responding to my posts.
Backache
Assistant Pro
The elite of either sex are not really as affected by the handicapping system as the average golfer as they don't play as much competitive handicap golf.
Despite a slight scepticism about the WHS it does seem to me that different men's and women's handicaps have worked pretty well down the years and I would be loath to introduce yet another change to handicapping.
Despite a slight scepticism about the WHS it does seem to me that different men's and women's handicaps have worked pretty well down the years and I would be loath to introduce yet another change to handicapping.
Swango1980
Well-known member
If handicaps are rated separately for males and females, will we run into problems in a few years, when more and more people don't wish to identify as either?
NearHull
Well-known member
Yes.
And I do not know enough about the issues to make any suggestions, but I hope that the National Unions are considering the incoming problems.
wjemather
Well-known member
No.
Swango1980
Well-known member
We'll see
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
If we do run into problems, I believe that a non-gender-specific handicap scale, as the OP suggested, would solve such problems.
Those currently on the female scale would gain higher handicaps in the transition to a comprehensive scale.
I don't see a need for this anytime soon, but it might become more desirable sometime in the future.
Alan Clifford
Well-known member
Shame no-one picked me up on this one. I'm not disadvantaged at all. If the ladies played of what are now the gentlemen's ratings, their handicaps would be a tad higher. So at the moment, what we have now is the extra work and expense, and irritation, of maintaining superfluous ratings.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Totally agree.Still ignoring the fact that young men and old men are physically different as well then?
Some old men at mine don’t play the comps as there all off the whites.
But we have some young girls that have no problem off the whites.
They regularly say they enjoy them better than the reds.
A handicap is a handicap whatever tees.
The ladies won’t be forced to play the whites!
What’s the use of having a slope system and rated tees if your not using them regardless of gender or anything else.
Swango1980
Well-known member
It is why I think it is surely to have a good idea where handicap is worked out equally for ALL golfers, and does not separate between men and women. Don't have a "model male golfer" and a "model female golfer". Just have a model golfer, and work it all out from there.
nickjdavis
Head Pro
Our course is being re-rated in a couple of weeks time.
There will be ratings for men of Whites, Yellows and Reds (currently only W/Y) and the Ladies will be rated for the Yellow tees as well as their current Red's. It will be interesting to see what the ratings are for the Men/reds and Ladies/Yellows. some of the bigger yardage differentials are...
4th 166/118 yds...the ladies would also then be presented with a new angle of play into the green requiring carry over water.
5th 406/373 yds...perhaps not a big change as most ladies will play this as a three shotter due to the dogleg and the fact that even today many of them hit a second shot to the dogleg rather than try to play over water to the green.
9th 310/259 yds...again many ladies currently lay up with their tee shot in front of a ditch that crosses the fairway...playing from further back might cause a few more of them to do the same
12th 164/132 yds...a change in angle of play might bring a small pond into play
13th 440/350 yds...might be a four shotter for the ladies to get to the green...from the mens tees the initial shot is severely uphill and second shots are often played from an uphill lie adding effective loft to the shot and reducing carry....I could see many "bogey" ladies really struggling here....perhaps it might be rated as a par 5 for ladies off the yellow tees.
There are a couple of other holes with 20-30 yrd differences but they don't offer any other changes to the challenge such as playing from different angles or slopes coming in to play.
Hopefully, when we get new cards sorted as a result of the new ratings we will also effect a change from the traditional W/Y/R tee colours to perhaps, i dunno....black, green, blue. I'm sure many of our seniors would benefit greatly from playing off the shorter tees...especially in winter.
There will be ratings for men of Whites, Yellows and Reds (currently only W/Y) and the Ladies will be rated for the Yellow tees as well as their current Red's. It will be interesting to see what the ratings are for the Men/reds and Ladies/Yellows. some of the bigger yardage differentials are...
4th 166/118 yds...the ladies would also then be presented with a new angle of play into the green requiring carry over water.
5th 406/373 yds...perhaps not a big change as most ladies will play this as a three shotter due to the dogleg and the fact that even today many of them hit a second shot to the dogleg rather than try to play over water to the green.
9th 310/259 yds...again many ladies currently lay up with their tee shot in front of a ditch that crosses the fairway...playing from further back might cause a few more of them to do the same
12th 164/132 yds...a change in angle of play might bring a small pond into play
13th 440/350 yds...might be a four shotter for the ladies to get to the green...from the mens tees the initial shot is severely uphill and second shots are often played from an uphill lie adding effective loft to the shot and reducing carry....I could see many "bogey" ladies really struggling here....perhaps it might be rated as a par 5 for ladies off the yellow tees.
There are a couple of other holes with 20-30 yrd differences but they don't offer any other changes to the challenge such as playing from different angles or slopes coming in to play.
Hopefully, when we get new cards sorted as a result of the new ratings we will also effect a change from the traditional W/Y/R tee colours to perhaps, i dunno....black, green, blue. I'm sure many of our seniors would benefit greatly from playing off the shorter tees...especially in winter.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Given that the CR and BR are currently different for men and women and the Slope is therefore different and that course and shot length make the major contribution to Ratings.
The Rating formulae would have to be appropriately modified to allow for the full range of strokes needed to encompass all the potential landing/targets that both 'old' and 'young' male or female players achieve.
I suspect that it may result in 3 digit HIs.
Swango1980
Well-known member
3 digit handicap indices?
I suspect you are being a bit extreme? There are already 70/80 year old men, and very few have an Index of 54.0 even. And, if there are mixed singles competitions, do ladies ever have their handicap adjusted so that instead of playing off, say 45 like they would against other ladies, they are instead playing off 100+ against a mixed field???
rulefan
Tour Winner
A crude calculation for a 6000 yard course produces the following CR for (non-gendered) players with a particular driving length and commensurate lengths for other clubs:
220 = 70
180 = 75
150 = 87
120 = 98
Alan Clifford
Well-known member
Take a lady with an index of 25 playing the blues at Langebaan, South Africa. Plug in the numbers and she needs a gross of 106 to get a differential of 25.4 (because gross is rounded). Plug the 106 into the calculation using the gentlemens ratings and she gets a differential of 33.2. Repeat for the reds, whites and yellows and take an average and her 25 handicap becomes 33.
The lady I know with a handicap of 2 would have a new handicap of 8.2.
A lady with a ladies' handicap over 44.5 would exceed the 54 limit.
My conclusion is that ladies' handicaps are artifically low.
The lady I know with a handicap of 2 would have a new handicap of 8.2.
A lady with a ladies' handicap over 44.5 would exceed the 54 limit.
My conclusion is that ladies' handicaps are artifically low.
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
I know of a lot of players in that sort of age range who have not played in any sort of comp for donkeys years and if they were to put in 20+ cards in a year would see massive increases in their handicaps (discounting soft and hard caps).
When the WHS came in we had over 100 members (12-15% of membership) who had not put in a card for more than 3 years.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Are you effectively meaning Bogey Ratings for people of different yardage?
Swango1980
Well-known member
I'm sure that is true, but there are also many people in that age range who do hand in loads of scores. I don't know any that really need the max index increased from 54.
And so I also don't suddenly see people needing triple digit handicaps if they were gender neutral. That is absurd. Unless we are saying a lady who currently gets 40 something shots suddenly needs 100+ shots?