Sex discrimination in golf

Liverpoolphil

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Don’t bother going to clubs with tee maintenance going on , guaranteed disappointment. Ask in the pro shop if they have closed and not adjusted and offering a reduced experience then it’s a case of walking away or asking for a discounted green fee. I have usually been offered a reduced fee but I have not always taken them up.
If the course is fully open then why not?
I don’t want to play a shortened course or temporary greens especially if I have paid for it.
When I started golf I had to go through a process of learning the etiquette and playing with established members to learn how to behave and treat the course. So yeah I respect the course and you won’t know I have been there.
If you’re playing off tees that are reserved only for members or competitions and you have decided to ignore that and play off them anyway “to get the full experience” - then is that respecting the course/club ?
 

harpo_72

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If you’re playing off tees that are reserved only for members or competitions and you have decided to ignore that and play off them anyway “to get the full experience” - then is that respecting the course/club ?
Look it the other way, are you respecting the green fee payer by giving them a degraded experience?
But back on topic I don’t see why ladies if they so choose cannot go off the yellow tees if they are the tee of the day? A red tee and yellow tee should be available at all courses.
I won’t play if there is no white tee available. Which probably is the point Kaz will get to
 

Liverpoolphil

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Look it the other way, are you respecting the green fee payer by giving them a degraded experience?
But back on topic I don’t see why ladies if they so choose cannot go off the yellow tees if they are the tee of the day? A red tee and yellow tee should be available at all courses.
I won’t play if there is no white tee available. Which probably is the point Kaz will get to
Or people adhere to the rules set out by the club regardless of sex - if the club dictate that ladies go of the reds then that’s the tee they play , if the club allow any tee to be used for the ladies then pick a tee they want but the overriding respectful thing to do is adhere to the club rules. Ignoring club rules is disrespectful
 

DaveR

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No, in this example sex discrimination is the problem.
Not necessarily. My course has several carries well in excess of 150 yards from the yellow/white tees. Good luck to the majority of women if they want to go further back from the red tees.
 

harpo_72

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You kind of missed my point. I'll usually do exactly as you suggest, other than one course that was adamant about it, but that's not a realistic option for all. Some courses are well-designed and give a comparable experience to players from the front tees. Most, unfortunately, don't and some are almost laughably bad. IMO, and that's all it is, those latter courses are ripping off players charging the same fees to play a poor version of their course.
That’s where I got to and if I see tee boxes so close then I am either back in the shop or off the tee box I want to play from … the rules don’t apply when they are out to rip you off. A lack of respect breeds a lack of respect ..
 

DaveR

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That’s where I got to and if I see tee boxes so close then I am either back in the shop or off the tee box I want to play from … the rules don’t apply when they are out to rip you off. A lack of respect breeds a lack of respect ..
Seems to me that you're the one showing a lack of respect.
 

Liverpoolphil

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No, in this example sex discrimination is the problem.
I’m not sure what you are saying no to but it’s not discriminatory if every visitor or member is treated the same.

If a visitor is detailed to go off the tee of the day for their respective sex then both sexes are being treated equally and the same if it’s members .

At the end of the day people should always respect the rules of the club when they are visiting that club - if they are unable to do so then don’t go to the club.
That’s where I got to and if I see tee boxes so close then I am either back in the shop or off the tee box I want to play from … the rules don’t apply when they are out to rip you off. A lack of respect breeds a lack of respect ..
And as I said - you by ignoring club rules and what they request are showing a lack of respect - maybe look inward first. It’s not always about what you want - rules always apply.
 

Billysboots

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the rules don’t apply when they are out to rip you off.
Whilst part of me is minded to agree, I do question why you would want to play somewhere if you feel they are out to rip you off.

That said, I have played at places where some of the tees absolutely warrant a discounted fee. I played both courses at Stoke By Nayland in the summer, and many of the ladies tees were merely blocks on uncut fairways, several offering sloping lies and nothing else. I may be speaking out of turn, and the ladies may have received a reduced fee, but I doubt it.

But would it be right for the ladies to play from the men’s tees? Probably not fair on them anyway, given so many require a long carry over water. The choice really was whether to put up with what was on offer, or simply go elsewhere.

I absolutely agree that nobody should put up with being ripped off. I’m just not sure that being denied the opportunity to play off the very back tees, generally reserved for board competitions or scratch team matches at many clubs, necessarily equates to being ripped off.

What I can tell you is that any visitor found playing off the blue tees at ours (the very tips) will be asked not to. If they continue the club won’t take future bookings from them. That isn’t the club failing to respect a visitor in my view, but one maintaining its course in its best condition for events which merit it.
 

harpo_72

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Whilst part of me is minded to agree, I do question why you would want to play somewhere if you feel they are out to rip you off.

That said, I have played at places where some of the tees absolutely warrant a discounted fee. I played both courses at Stoke By Nayland in the summer, and many of the ladies tees were merely blocks on uncut fairways, several offering sloping lies and nothing else. I may be speaking out of turn, and the ladies may have received a reduced fee, but I doubt it.

But would it be right for the ladies to play from the men’s tees? Probably not fair on them anyway, given so many require a long carry over water. The choice really was whether to put up with what was on offer, or simply go elsewhere.

I absolutely agree that nobody should put up with being ripped off. I’m just not sure that being denied the opportunity to play off the very back tees, generally reserved for board competitions or scratch team matches at many clubs, necessarily equates to being ripped off.

What I can tell you is that any visitor found playing off the blue tees at ours (the very tips) will be asked not to. If they continue the club won’t take future bookings from them. That isn’t the club failing to respect a visitor in my view, but one maintaining its course in its best condition for events which merit it.
I think it’s a case of going back to pro shop and asking for a refund most of the time.. but if they refuse then it’s a bit of a prolonged process ..
 

BiMGuy

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Or people adhere to the rules set out by the club regardless of sex - if the club dictate that ladies go of the reds then that’s the tee they play , if the club allow any tee to be used for the ladies then pick a tee they want but the overriding respectful thing to do is adhere to the club rules. Ignoring club rules is disrespectful
Surely a club dictating a tee based on gender is the very definition of discrimination?
 

Billysboots

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I think it’s a case of going back to pro shop and asking for a refund most of the time.. but if they refuse then it’s a bit of a prolonged process ..
Depends on whether or not they’re willing to see lots of negative online reviews. 😉
 

harpo_72

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I’m not sure what you are saying no to but it’s not discriminatory if every visitor or member is treated the same.

If a visitor is detailed to go off the tee of the day for their respective sex then both sexes are being treated equally and the same if it’s members .

At the end of the day people should always respect the rules of the club when they are visiting that club - if they are unable to do so then don’t go to the club.


And as I said - you by ignoring club rules and what they request are showing a lack of respect - maybe look inward first. It’s not always about what you want - rules always apply.
This discussion could go on forever and a day.. do your thing and I will do mine and if you get upset by it then that’s your emotional energy you have wasted 👍
 

Liverpoolphil

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Surely a club dictating a tee based on gender is the very definition of discrimination?
Courses are designed from tees based on gender at many clubs - the ladies tees are there for the ladies at the measured course for their handicap over the years , the layout , the carries , the par. Most clubs are moving towards having each tee rated for both ladies and men but still clubs have a tee of the day for both their men , ladies , visitors and members - its up to them to decide which tee is to be used for that day -and that also includes the men playing off what is normally set aside for ladies.

For me the clear message is respecting the clubs wishes - especially when visiting , always ask the question of which tee you can use - if they say yellows or tee of the day only , ignore that and play of whatever you want then that imo is disrespectful to the club and course
 

Liverpoolphil

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This discussion could go on forever and a day.. do your thing and I will do mine and if you get upset by it then that’s your emotional energy you have wasted 👍
No one is getting upset - was just pointing out your hypocrisy when you state you respect the course yet ignore the club rules to do whatever you want
 

Billysboots

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Surely a club dictating a tee based on gender is the very definition of discrimination?
This is where every golf club will have a problem, and we are in danger of over simplifying things. Clubs have to take a stance which suits the majority, for the good of the club, members and visitors alike, whilst understanding there will always be exceptions.

In general, the ladies at ours want to play from their own tees. They are realistic enough to accept that much of the course simply isn’t playable for them off the yellow (daily tees), never mind further back. We have two holes where the carry over water is close to 200 yards off the whites, 150 from the yellows. If we were to allow the majority of our ladies, especially the senior ladies, to play off the whites, you would be seeing rounds of five hours plus - that’s simply not good for anyone. Equally, there are probably half a dozen ladies who like the occasional knock on a longer course, and they are made more than welcome.

Now this is where it gets interesting. What about male golfers who simply aren’t good enough to play the game and slap it round in five hours plus from tees clearly too difficult for them, simply because, as men, they are allowed? Do you enforce them playing from the traditional ladies tees?

Perhaps the answer to this is to allocate tees based on ability rather than gender? A starter at every club, requiring a handicap certificate? The problems that will cause will be a logistical headache for many clubs.

It is like it is for a reason. It is fair, and suitable, to the vast majority. Clubs need to address the requests of those who feel general principles don’t apply to them when the need arises.
 

RichA

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Surely, unless it's a comp with specified tees, any person paying a green fee or membership should be free to play off any available tee of their choosing. Anything else, based on gender would be discriminatory. It shouldn't be complicated, we're talking about tee boxes, not toilets.
 

harpo_72

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No one is getting upset - was just pointing out your hypocrisy when you state you respect the course yet ignore the club rules to do whatever you want
That’s not hypocrisy, that’s a club rule (?) vs a course condition and maintenance.. you can obey all the club rules and disrespect the course.
 
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