England Golf General Play Restrictions

[Deleted member 30522]

England Golf require this in bold below for it to be an acceptable score for handicapping;-
In an authorised format of play (individual formats only) over a minimum number of holes.

But you're playing individual, a bounce game with 4 mates with maybe a side bet on the pairs isn't 4BBB (as per the rules) in anyone's language. Turn that around, how many folks play a pairs game on the side in a medal, so those shouldn't count either? (I appreciate not all clubs play medals in 4s)

 

[Bdill93]

My last club didn't have a pro shop. Green Fee players just paid at reception, where you would have the Owner or a member of staff who would serve them, in between working in the public bar / restaurant.

I can guarantee with 100% conviction that none of them would be taking notes on golfers going out to play General Play rounds. They wouldn't care two hoots. Most of them know nothing about golf (including the owner), and they are simply there to take in money, serve food and drink and when they have time, do a bit of general cleaning. If the Committee asked if he or his staff could do this, you wouldn't just get a No, you'd probably a punch in the face for daring to ask

My club isn't far off that - the guys in the "pro shop" aren't pros, just young lads but I think 2 out of 3 of them do play.

In these cases you could still submit a physical card with a time and date etc on it, it would take a lot more effort to falsify than an app score anyway.

Probably use the screen in the clubhouse.
the use of the app on a phone makes it easier but a physical PSI you at least would have to be present.

It is the "proving you're present" that I am trying to find an answer for, PSI must be at most clubs? That alongside a card in the box for the handicap sec should be enough - at least then a half decent handicap sec may notice you always seem to play well with X mate - well below your comp scoring average etc

 

[rulefan]

For submitting general play cards for most golfers (i.e. Cat 2 and higher)? The answer is yes.

But, if clubchamp is also referring to the few golfers out there that like to manipulate their handicaps up or down, then the answer would be no. We all know the WHS system itself allows handicaps to shoot up much more rapidly, so General Play rounds are much more potent than Supplementary scores for golfers that can do this. I'm not sure handicaps come down as quickly as they were pre-WHS, under the system itself. But, the technology developed to assist functionality around WHS makes submitting General Play scores much more easily than Supplementary scores. So, if a golfer wants to get their handicap down, it is simply easier for them to do this. I know there are features in the tech that can try and reduce the chances of this happening, but as it stands it is still fairly easy for the few players who want to manipulate their handicap either way.

As it stands though, I think we just have to accept it is what it is. Just before WHS started, there were a lot of voices of concern that the system could be much more easily manipulated. There was a perception that handicaps in the UK were generally much "fairer" and representative than those handicaps of Americans and how they used their system. Therefore, the worry was that WHS would just encourage more manipulation, and we would, in general, lose some integrity in being able to manage the system. But, WHS was not going to be "better" in every single metric you could think of compared to the old system. There'd always be pros and cons, and you hope the pros outweigh the cons. I do believe it is nice that honest golfers can choose to officially submit scores from every round if they wish, as to many it adds something extra to a social round of golf (me included). The process is easier, and technically there is less work for Committee as scores go straight onto a players record without them having to accept them first (with the manipulation being the downside to that point). And, the addition of Slope is a good thing, as it means that the handicap difference between low and high players isn't fixed, regardless of the course you play. Instead, it means at a relatively easy course, higher handicappers will get less shots on the low handicapper, but they'll get more shots on relatively very difficult ones.

IMO the availability of technology is the most significant factor. Manual pre-declaration just before playing via a register or such in the proshop would have been a big disincentive to cheating. I also suspect that the authorities' heavily weighted encouragement has changed the environment.

 

[rulefan]

"Elite" for now....are they implying that handicap manipulation only happens for Plus handicappers or that it only matters for Plus handicappers.?

The EG Competitions Committee/Department are primarily concerned with Elite competitions. Where they have an oversubscription problem they have introduced a 'filter'.
Clubs, Counties, Districts etc can and should decide for themselves how they manage entries.

 

[D-S]

But you're playing individual, a bounce game with 4 mates with maybe a side bet on the pairs isn't 4BBB (as per the rules) in anyone's language. Turn that around, how many folks play a pairs game on the side in a medal, so those shouldn't count either? (I appreciate not all clubs play medals in 4s)

If you’re playing any form of 4BB and not giving advice then I would suggest you are doing it wrong. Personally I have never seen side bets in medals/Stablefords being ever pairs or matchplay based, almost always on the individual card. Any sort of pairs or team game requires sometimes a different strategy on a hole due to the situation your partner/team mates may be in and so is incompatbile with an individual score.

 

[doublebogey7]

Do they not track the people coming and going then?

Plenty of courses, particularly in Scotland that still have honesty boxes. My club will not have anybody to make a note of a GP round, before 8am or after 5 pm.

 

[D-S]

The EG Competitions Committee/Department are primarily concerned with Elite competitions. Where they have an oversubscription problem they have introduced a 'filter'.
Clubs, Counties, Districts etc can and should decide for themselves how they manage entries.

It would be interesting to see what they do in due course for their handicap events where they would be looking for the opposite of what they are trying to weed out in elite events, that would be players who have high GP scores and significantly lower on competition scores in their record.

 

[Swango1980]

If you’re playing any form of 4BB and not giving advice then I would suggest you are doing it wrong. Personally I have never seen side bets in medals/Stablefords being ever pairs or matchplay based, almost always on the individual card. Any sort of pairs or team game requires sometimes a different strategy on a hole due to the situation your partner/team mates may be in and so is incompatbile with an individual score.

True. I too have never seen groups play 4BBB in a medal.

In social golf, I've seen people play Stableford whilst also playing 4BBB in their group. They may even give advice and encouragement to their partner, and sometimes change order of play so one can get a good idea on the line. Complete no no's in individual Stableford, but as it is social everyone is fairly relaxed about it. Some of these players also submit their scores as General Play Scores.

Should they submit these scores as General Play Scores? Officially, no. But, does it happen? Yes, and probably quite frequently. So, definitely agree with you questioning BB when they said "there's no issue at all" when you are out for a bounce game and have side bets. Because, officially, there is an issue. What BB probably meant was "there is likely to be no issue because the people in the group are unlikely to give a damn, and the handicap committee will probably never find out, and if they do they probably won't kick up a fuss"

 

[doublebogey7]

My club isn't far off that - the guys in the "pro shop" aren't pros, just young lads but I think 2 out of 3 of them do play.

In these cases you could still submit a physical card with a time and date etc on it, it would take a lot more effort to falsify than an app score anyway.



It is the "proving you're present" that I am trying to find an answer for, PSI must be at most clubs? That alongside a card in the box for the handicap sec should be enough - at least then a half decent handicap sec may notice you always seem to play well with X mate - well below your comp scoring average etc

It is my understanding that you have to be present at the club, or in its immediate vacinity, for you to be able tell the App that you intend to submitt a GP score. The App also date & time stamps it. If we have any concerns we can also check whether or not a memeber has booked a tee time for the time the App says they have played. There can never be any guarantee's, scores can also be manipulated just as a player can kick the ball out of the long grass when no one is looking.

 

[clubchamp98]

It would be interesting to see what they do in due course for their handicap events where they would be looking for the opposite of what they are trying to weed out in elite events, that would be players who have high GP scores and significantly lower on competition scores in their record.

They should be balloted out or it’s a two tier system.
but that is unfair to some golfers as JacoG has stated.
They have created a problem for themselves implementing such a easy system to manipulate.
these problems have been highlited but because it’s getting to elite golf it’s a problem.

 

[Imurg]

The EG Competitions Committee/Department are primarily concerned with Elite competitions. Where they have an oversubscription problem they have introduced a 'filter'.
Clubs, Counties, Districts etc can and should decide for themselves how they manage entries.

Sounds like the 2nd one then....

 

[D-S]

It is my understanding that you have to be present at the club, or in its immediate vacinity, for you to be able tell the App that you intend to submitt a GP score. The App also date & time stamps it. If we have any concerns we can also check whether or not a memeber has booked a tee time for the time the App says they have played. There can never be any guarantee's, scores can also be manipulated just as a player can kick the ball out of the long grass when no one is looking.

If players are using the EG app there will also shortly be the functionality that requires the marker to be at the golf club too so there is a degree of protection. However you can also enter GP scores via ISV apps which don’t necessarily afford the same safeguards.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

If players are using the EG app there will also shortly be the functionality that requires the marker to be at the golf club too so there is a degree of protection. However you can also enter GP scores via ISV apps which don’t necessarily afford the same safeguards.

They should also make it so you have to be within the confines of the course for a given period of time.

 

[D-S]

They should also make it so you have to be within the confines of the course for a given period of time.

When you have registered you are unable to enter a score for a set time (I believe 90 minutes for a 9hole score and 3 hours for 18).

 

[IanM]

When you have registered you are unable to enter a score for a set time (I believe 90 minutes for a 9hole score and 3 hours for 18).

As I've said before... I live within a short distance of St Pierre. I can enter a general play score from my desk at home without leaving the house, let alone actually playing. I "could" use my wife's phone to get it "attested." (she'd report me if I tried!)

Now, how many of those "good or bad" scores would it take before my handicap sec looked into it? I wonder? (you'd hope it would trigger something!)

Would anybody really do that? Blooming right they would if the prizes were worth it.

Ever played in an Open with a bloke you thought was single figures and he was getting a shot a hole? No, surely not!

Folk were cheating handicaps long before WHS, but I wonder why it was made it easier to do?

Hence we're seeing restrictions coming in!

 

[upsidedown]

Hence we're seeing restrictions coming in!

My understanding is the restrictions are coming , not because folks are winning but the Elite competitions ( which are scratch ) are being populated by golfers that can play no where near their HI and thus devaluing the competition and potentially because of balloting excluding others

 

[evemccc]

Ever played in an Open with a bloke you thought was single figures and he was getting a shot a hole?

It’s a fair cop guv’…LOL I wish ?

 

[D-S]

My understanding is the restrictions are coming , not because folks are winning but the Elite competitions ( which are scratch ) are being populated by golfers that can play no where near their HI and thus devaluing the competition and potentially because of balloting excluding others

That is right, but the point being made is the same ease of manipulation (and therefore measures are need to counter act it) is as prevalent in the opposite direction and as yet no preventative measures are in place.

 

[rulefan]

It would be interesting to see what they do in due course for their handicap events where they would be looking for the opposite of what they are trying to weed out in elite events, that would be players who have high GP scores and significantly lower on competition scores in their record.

I can't see any individual handicap events run by England Golf on the website other than the Race to Woodhall Spa.
As the names and clubs are published it is easy to check their playing history.

 

[D-S]

I can't see any individual handicap events run by England Golf on the website other than the Race to Woodhall Spa.

The Race to Woodhall Spa? The England Captain’s Series? The England Seniors Series?