England Golf General Play Restrictions

[Jacko_G]

Its not nonsense though is it, I could achieve a + handicap within 2 weeks if I fancied it.

Just submit GP scores ive totally made up and get my best mate to approve them on the app.

Bosh, plus handicapper, opens here I come.

Ok you are a cheat I get that. Don't tar everyone with your brush though.

 

[Jacko_G]

Its not nonsense though is it, I could achieve a + handicap within 2 weeks if I fancied it.

Just submit GP scores ive totally made up and get my best mate to approve them on the app.

Bosh, plus handicapper, opens here I come.

Also you couldn't. JFYI

 

[Bdill93]

Ok you are a cheat I get that. Don't tar everyone with your brush though.

Do yourself a favor and grow up.

I'm not cheat, but I could be - and that's the argument for this limit.

Also you couldn't. JFYI

I absolutely could

 

[clubchamp98]

Its not nonsense though is it, I could achieve a + handicap within 2 weeks if I fancied it.

Just submit GP scores ive totally made up and get my best mate to approve them on the app.

Bosh, plus handicapper, opens here I come.

Therein lies the problem.
most won’t do that, but the ones that will have been helped to do it by such a easy system to manipulate.
their not bothered by most golfers but their precious elite comps are being compromised now .

 

[upsidedown]

Good on EG for doing this . From my experience in the Senior "elite" ranks there are players who have + handicaps that can't play to them .

 

[Bdill93]

Therein lies the problem.
most won’t do that, but the ones that will have been helped to do it by such a easy system to manipulate.
their not bothered by most golfers but their precious elite comps are being compromised now .

Exactly! I think they should just disallow golf club members from the function of the app scoring and force them to sign in/ out via the pro shop.

That way at least the pro knows you've been out for a round and someone (a PP) can attest to the score. Fair enough, you can still fudge it but I think less would if they had to hand a card to the pro after.

 

[clubchamp98]

Exactly! I think they should just disallow golf club members from the function of the app scoring and force them to sign in/ out via the pro shop.

That way at least the pro knows you've been out for a round and someone (a PP) can attest to the score. Fair enough, you can still fudge it but I think less would if they had to hand a card to the pro after.

Golf is/was a game of trust.
that’s changed now and EG don’t trust players putting GP cards in.

 

[Bdill93]

Golf is/was a game of trust.
that’s changed now and EG don’t trust players putting GP cards in.

And that's the shameful thing, I've worked damn hard to get down to 11 from 19, 3 years of graft, It irks me that guys are conning the system just for vanity and access to some opens.

 

[clubchamp98]

And that's the shameful thing, I've worked damn hard to get down to 11 from 19, 3 years of graft, It irks me that guys are conning the system just for vanity and access to some opens.

I don’t understand this.
why get a vanity handicap then make a show of yourself on a elite course / comp.
normally golfers don’t play better under pressure so putting yourself in this position when you havnt got the game for it just dosnt seem sensible to me.
but it takes all kinds.
maybe now it will show what lots of us think WHS is a Cheats Charter.

 

[Jason.H]

We’ve had a couple of players that put in around 4 general play scores a week mostly in the high 80,s or 90,s of the yellows then off back tees in comps shoot in the 70,s and won a lot of comps last year. One of them was asked to meet the committee and he got a bit irate. Without evidence what can be done?

 

[John Evans 9]

I suspect that most GP cards are submitted when playing a friendly 4BBB. Is this really allowed under WHS ?

 

[patricks148]

Good on EG for doing this . From my experience in the Senior "elite" ranks there are players who have + handicaps that can't play to them .

A mate of mine played the Senior Amateur open at Royal Dornoch. He played with two guys who'd told him they had both got down from being 5 handicappers to play in this, neither broke 80 on the Struie.

 

[Imurg]

I suspect that most GP cards are submitted when playing a friendly 4BBB. Is this really allowed under WHS ?

Nope....

Last year I put in 110 cards..16 of them from competitions.
There are 2 competition scores in my last 20.
On every single one of those 110 rounds I tried my best to score the best score I possibly could.
If I got balloted out of a competition because only 2 of my previous 20 scores are "acceptable " then I'd tell them to stuff their competitions where the Sun doesn't shine.

 

[Swango1980]

We’ve had a couple of players that put in around 4 general play scores a week mostly in the high 80,s or 90,s of the yellows then off back tees in comps shoot in the 70,s and won a lot of comps last year. One of them was asked to meet the committee and he got a bit irate. Without evidence what can be done?

It's funny. I, and others mentioned the whole manipulation issue before WHS even arose. To try and "shut us up", many pro WHS voices would simply come up with lines such as "what sort of golfers do you have at your club!? Golf is a game of integrity and it won't be an issue. Or, at least, it will be no more an issue under WHS than it is with the (then) current system, as any system can be manipulated".

Now, a few years into WHS, and we have been hearing stories of much more significant manipulation than could ever have really been possible with the old system (your example probably meets that definition). And, now England Golf are having to make extra measures with Elite competition entry that they didn't seem to think were necessary before WHS.

It is true, most golfers are honest and have integrity. But, if only 5% of golfers are of the mind to manipulate their handicap (from the very devious and blatant cheats, to the ones that think that what they are doing is actually OK and honourable - such as only submitting low scores to get a low handicap and thinking that isn't cheating as they get less shots at end of day), that is still about 5 golfers in a competition field of 100. You only need there to be 1 blatant cheat in a field to upset 99 other golfers.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I suspect that most GP cards are submitted when playing a friendly 4BBB. Is this really allowed under WHS ?

I can’t ever remember playing 4BBB outside of a winter comp or open.

 

[Jacko_G]

It's funny. I, and others mentioned the whole manipulation issue before WHS even arose. To try and "shut us up", many pro WHS voices would simply come up with lines such as "what sort of golfers do you have at your club!? Golf is a game of integrity and it won't be an issue. Or, at least, it will be no more an issue under WHS than it is with the (then) current system, as any system can be manipulated".

Now, a few years into WHS, and we have been hearing stories of much more significant manipulation than could ever have really been possible with the old system (your example probably meets that definition). And, now England Golf are having to make extra measures with Elite competition entry that they didn't seem to think were necessary before WHS.

It is true, most golfers are honest and have integrity. But, if only 5% of golfers are of the mind to manipulate their handicap (from the very devious and blatant cheats, to the ones that think that what they are doing is actually OK and honourable - such as only submitting low scores to get a low handicap and thinking that isn't cheating as they get less shots at end of day), that is still about 5 golfers in a competition field of 100. You only need there to be 1 blatant cheat in a field to upset 99 other golfers.

Tell.me how that scenario differs drom the supplementary score of the previous system other than CAT 1 golfers couldn't do it?

It doesn't.

Golf is a game if trust. I submitted way more GP's than medal/competition rounds last year. That's just down to my work life balance not down to wanting to manipulate anything. It's not a personal choice either it's pure and simple down to how many Saturday competitions and midweek competitions that I can enter due to work.

WHS on the whole (for me) is an excellent system.

I guess the crux of this whole debate is that it won't affect choppers like me and the vast majority on here. I only enter Open competitions when I can so I doubt a local club will ballot me out.

 

[John Evans 9]

I can’t ever remember playing 4BBB outside of a winter comp or open.

Outside of formal competitions the norm at my club is 4BBB. So anyone submitting a GP score is usually part of a 4BBB match and I wondered if this is OK under WHS. We’ve had hundreds ,perhaps thousands, of GP cards submitted under these circumstances.

 

[wjemather]

Its not nonsense though is it, I could achieve a + handicap within 2 weeks if I fancied it.

Just submit GP scores ive totally made up and get my best mate to approve them on the app.

Bosh, plus handicapper, opens here I come.

The same principal applies to any (qualifying) club stableford or medal. The only difference being the token entry fee.

 

[Swango1980]

Tell.me how that scenario differs drom the supplementary score of the previous system other than CAT 1 golfers couldn't do it?

It doesn't.

Golf is a game if trust. I submitted way more GP's than medal/competition rounds last year. That's just down to my work life balance not down to wanting to manipulate anything. It's not a personal choice either it's pure and simple down to how many Saturday competitions and midweek competitions that I can enter due to work.

WHS on the whole (for me) is an excellent system.

I guess the crux of this whole debate is that it won't affect choppers like me and the vast majority on here. I only enter Open competitions when I can so I doubt a local club will ballot me out.

Easy.

Supplementary Scores:

• Each score had to be physically verified by Committee before touching a players handicap
• For bad rounds, players could only go up 0.1 at a time. Going up 6 shots, for example, would take about 55-65 rounds. I think a handicap secretary might smell something fishy?
• Generally a tool not widely used, maybe as some golfers found it a bit of a hassle

General Play Scores (WHS)

• Scores go straight to a players record, no verification required by Committee
• A player could theoretically get up to 6 shots hack on their course handicap in 10-20 rounds
• Much easier for players to submit scores, much harder for club committees to check these scores (whether they've been entered accurately, signed for, and just picking up general patterns)

"Golf is a game of trust". That is exactly the argument that I mentioned in my opening line of the post you replied to. It is. But, it should be clear that not everyone can be trusted. Otherwise, would England Golf be announcing these restrictions? Would people be talking about members at their courses who submit really poor GP rounds, then smash it in competitions? I'm not questioning your integrity, but the fact that some have less integrity will ultimately harm honest golfers, as more general restrictions will probably be brought into place. For example, I suspect some Open competitions will ban players with an igolf membership, if they feel many of them cannot be trusted, given they have no club handicap committee monitoring them at all?

 

[Swango1980]

Outside of formal competitions the norm at my club is 4BBB. So anyone submitting a GP score is usually part of a 4BBB match and I wondered if this is OK under WHS. We’ve had hundreds ,perhaps thousands, of GP cards submitted under these circumstances.

Nope, not according to the guidelines set out for the UK anyway. Probably OK in other nations (I think it is allowed in Ireland?).

On one hand, it is a good thing, as always, for the honest golfer. For the less than honest golfer, however, I wonder if they could just put in their good scores when they counted on the hole, and blob the hole any time their score won't count? For example, two of your playing partners might have 10 foot birdie putts on a par 4. You get it on the green in 3, and have a long putt for a par, but more likely a bogey 5 for 2 points. Do they play on? Or, do they pick up and blob the hole, knowing that 2 of their playing partners will score the same, if not better than you anyway? maybe it isn't a devious decision, but simply trying to speed the game up and not being bothered if their individual score is great?

Also, I guess another big thing is that in team play, your shots can be influenced by advice given by team mates, or maybe seeing the line of a putt by changing the order of play?