England Golf General Play Restrictions

[wjemather]

Yes I agree nobody saw the Elite players manipulating their handicaps.
But there was plenty of talk about the rest of us predicting What would eventually come to pass.

This is not true - there have always been examples of elite players manipulating handicaps, often through cheating or doctoring of scores, and such underhand practices are obviously not limited to general play.

 

[D-S]

Nothing to do with trust - the old UHS system was designed as a competition handicap system; the supplementary scores process was introduced in order to mitigate lack of opportunity to submit competition scores, not as an alternative to competitions.

WHS is a system for all golf, not just competitions. Players, including a great many who were dis-enfranchised by UHS, are now simply taking advantage of the unrestricted ability to submit scores without entering competitions. With a handicap that is now reflective of their ability, some of them are re-engaging with competitions. This is a good thing.

However, if the mantra “WHS is a system for all golf not just competitions” but by doing so it corrupts competition golf then it certainly has not achieved its objective.
Also aren’t handicaps basically used to make golf competitions fair or fairer - otherwise what is their point? If you want a current personal form guide there are many ways to do that.
At a club level I don’t see massive increase in entry in competitions (due to some “re-engaging with competitions”), of course there are more golfers but I don’t think this has anything to do with WHS. You could argue the reverse is true and that worry over handicaps not representing ability has led many not to enter competitions.

 

[clubchamp98]

This is not true - there have always been examples of elite players manipulating handicaps, often through cheating or doctoring of scores, and such underhand practices are obviously not limited to general play.

Yes your probably correct.
but why put a system in that makes it easier for them to manipulate.
at least is stops them actually cheating to get as low as they want.

 

[IanM]

Yes your probably correct.
but why put a system in that makes it easier for them to manipulate.
at least is stops them actually cheating to get as low as they want.

That was my point pre WHS and non comp App based score entry.

Removing any control makes misbehaving easier, not harder! (If folk are so minded)

 

[Crazyface]

That was my point pre WHS and non comp App based score entry.

Removing any control makes misbehaving easier, not harder! (If folk are so minded)

You can cheat just as much in comps. The way forward is when a good score in put in the HC drops to match it exactly. Any increase is 0.1 every time the new HC isn't matched.

 

[Swango1980]

You can cheat just as much in comps. The way forward is when a good score in put in the HC drops to match it exactly. Any increase is 0.1 every time the new HC isn't matched.

I'm not sure it as easy to cheat in comps.

We're talking about handicap manipulation. So, for guys who want to be as low as possible, they find ways to just submit good GP scores. Guess Dane can be true for those wanting to increase handicaps, by submitting only bad scores.

In a competition, you'll have some method of entering and paying, and someone on Committee finalising results. Bit harder for a low handicapper to not submit poor scores, by pretending they never played.

 

[D-S]

Why bother manipulating your handicap in comps when you can do it for free with a mate and an app?

 

[clubchamp98]

That was my point pre WHS and non comp App based score entry.

Removing any control makes misbehaving easier, not harder! (If folk are so minded)

Exactly and I am pretty sure we discussed this before WHS was even implemented.
but it’s messing up the flagship events so bells are going off.
if we could see it why couldn’t EG.

but it’s been messing up “ ordinary golfers” competitions since it was introduced.
plenty on here blaming the clubs !
but it’s cheating golfers helped by a ludicrous system that’s just so easy to manipulate.

as for more comp participation “ joke” I know at least 10 guys who just have their own sweep now and don’t play the comps Anymore.

 

[clubchamp98]

Why bother manipulating your handicap in comps when you can do it for free with a mate and an app?

It gets you in Elite comps where the latter dosnt If your low enough.

 

[Crazyface]

I'm not sure it as easy to cheat in comps.

We're talking about handicap manipulation. So, for guys who want to be as low as possible, they find ways to just submit good GP scores. Guess Dane can be true for those wanting to increase handicaps, by submitting only bad scores.

In a competition, you'll have some method of entering and paying, and someone on Committee finalising results. Bit harder for a low handicapper to not submit poor scores, by pretending they never played.

You would think, but I've seen my bil do it many many times and even admitted to it. " If you rounds not going well mess about on the back nine". He used to miss little putts, laugh, and miss them again. Easy peasy .

 

[Swango1980]

You would think, but I've seen my bil do it many many times and even admitted to it. " If you rounds not going well mess about on the back nine". He used to miss little putts, laugh, and miss them again. Easy peasy .

Yeah, true, you could do that if you wanted an increase. Presumably, if it is that blatant, and the other guys in the group are frustrated enough by this cheating, they could inform Committee that the players handicap is too high because of this. Easier to do in GP, as the player can guarantee the person they are playing with is not the type to dob them in.

More tricky when you want a handicap decrease. Unless you have a Committee who are happy to completely ignore any NRs, as if they never existed.

 

[wjemather]

Yeah, true, you could do that if you wanted an increase. Presumably, if it is that blatant, and the other guys in the group are frustrated enough by this cheating, they could inform Committee that the players handicap is too high because of this. Easier to do in GP, as the player can guarantee the person they are playing with is not the type to dob them in.

More tricky when you want a handicap decrease. Unless you have a Committee who are happy to completely ignore any NRs, as if they never existed.

You'd be surprised.

Start by only enter comps when conditions are good; follow up by cheating: e.g. not counting every stroke, improving lies, ignoring penalties, conveniently locating lost balls in favourable places, etc. If things are going badly and no amount of cheating will help, claim an injury/emergency before the turn so your score won't be acceptable. And if just a little tweaking is needed at the end, there's always the nuclear option of doctoring your scorecard after it's been signed, because let's face it, your marker is unlikely to remember what you really scored on the 7th hole by the time the results are posted (if they even bother to check them). Or, since few clubs have drawn comps, simply play with an chosen accomplice and just mark down whatever scores you want (i.e. what some people seem to think is happening with gp scores).

I'm aware of people being caught doing all of these things, and more - impossible to know how long they'd been doing it but you can be sure it wasn't a one-off.

 

[Swango1980]

You'd be surprised.

Start by only enter comps when conditions are good; follow up by cheating: e.g. not counting every stroke, improving lies, ignoring penalties, conveniently locating lost balls in favourable places, etc. If things are going badly and no amount of cheating will help, claim an injury/emergency before the turn so your score won't be acceptable. And if just a little tweaking is needed at the end, there's always the nuclear option of doctoring your scorecard after it's been signed, because let's face it, your marker is unlikely to remember what you really scored on the 7th hole by the time the results are posted (if they even bother to check them). Or, since few clubs have drawn comps, simply play with an chosen accomplice and just mark down whatever scores you want (i.e. what some people seem to think is happening with gp scores).

I'm aware of people being caught doing all of these things, and more - impossible to know how long they'd been doing it but you can be sure it wasn't a one-off.

Never said it couldn't happen, just said much harder if you are playing in a comp and the guys you play with are less likely to let you get away with it.

I've never seen it once in my 15 years in a comp, where a player has done any of this blatant cheating. I'd imagine the frequency is so much lower, than a similar type of player that goes out for GP rounds with his mate every week, and just submits what they fancy. Who knows, maybe they are both at it.