England Golf General Play Restrictions

[IanM]

But it's not easier to do due to WHS, it's due to Covid which facilitated the need to score via an App and which has continued for the purposes of GP scores (and in some clubs their medals too)

...yes, I am lumping WHS, the App and a move for everything to count in the same bucket. That might incorrect or correct, but as a humble customer that is how it appears to me. (if you see what I mean)

 

[wjemather]

But it's not easier to do due to WHS, it's due to Covid which facilitated the need to score via an App and which has continued for the purposes of GP scores (and in some clubs their medals too)

Covid has nothing to do with it. Scoring via mobile apps was already a thing and use would have expanded in GB&I on the back of WHS irrespective of Covid.

 

[rulefan]

Yes it was an EG seminar, it was presented by EG personnel. The presenter who gave this news was a member of the Championship Committee.
Of course they did not name the players by name, that they belive were manipulating the system, in an open forum however they did advise us of the discrepancies and the differentials between their competition and GP scores. As I said the audience of County Secretaries, Regional Handicap Advisors and County Handicap Advisors also corroborrated the fact with examples of their own.
The players were of elite status as they gained entry into prestigious EG competitions last year. This triggered the change to the term of competition.

Interesting

 

[clubchamp98]

Interesting

Yes it is.

they spent years encouraging players to put GP scores in.
now those scores are second best to comp scores.

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

Yes it is.

they spent years encouraging players to put GP scores in.
now those scores are second best to comp scores.

And so they should be…
attached - exhibits A, B and C. The last 20 competition rounds that exist for each player.

Handicaps are 2.8, 3.3 and 3.3. I’m not saying which is which.

Player A has the 3 lowest rounds (73, 73, 74) and 7 out of the lowest 11 rounds.

Can you please advise which player you would most want in a scratch open event?
And guess the handicaps based on that.

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

At the course where all of those members play:
73 = 1.5
74 = 2.4
75 = 3.3
76 = 4.2
Etc

1 of those players has the following general play submissions in their last 20… And I think 6 or 7 are counting in their best 8:
79 / 4.3 (away)
80 / 5.5 (away)
77 / 2.5 (away)
77 / 5.2
76 / 4.2
74 / 3.4 (away)
74 / 2.4
76 / 4.2

Another has the following counting to his best 8:
75 / 1.4 (away)
74 / 2.1 (away)
77 / 3.1 (away)
68 / 0.6 (away)
75 / 1.3 (away)

1 of those players has no general play submissions.

 

[Deleted member 31467]

It seems likely to me that GP scores have a good chance of being better than competition scores. When you enter a competition you have to accept the course conditions on the day but people put in GP scores when the conditions suit them. No wind or rain.

 

[Swango1980]

It seems likely to me that GP scores have a good chance of being better than competition scores. When you enter a competition you have to accept the course conditions on the day but people put in GP scores when the conditions suit them. No wind or rain.

The PCC factor takes that into account................allegedly

 

[clubchamp98]

And so they should be…
attached - exhibits A, B and C. The last 20 competition rounds that exist for each player.

Handicaps are 2.8, 3.3 and 3.3. I’m not saying which is which.

Player A has the 3 lowest rounds (73, 73, 74) and 7 out of the lowest 11 rounds.

Can you please advise which player you would most want in a scratch open event?
And guess the handicaps based on that.

I agree so they should be.
these players are so close together it’s on the day that counts.
but to me the one that can do it away from home is probably the better player.
but it’s EG that’s choosing .

 

[D-S]

Sourced from National Club Golfer re EG new Term of Competition
”James Crampton, England Golf’s director of championships, said the pilot was designed to protect the integrity of elite amateur competitions and added they had seen a number of occasions in 2022 where players had entered some of their majors with handicaps that “were quite clearly based on their ability to return general play scores rather than competition scores”.”
Sounds like some were trying to buck the system.

 

[JonnyGutteridge]

I agree so they should be.
these players are so close together it’s on the day that counts.
but to me the one that can do it away from home is probably the better player.
but it’s EG that’s choosing .

A - 3.3/no gps
B - 2.8/5 away gp cards
C - 3.3/7ish gp cards

 

[Imurg]

It appears Scotland won't be joining this club...they've decided to not enforce the restrictions like England and Ireland
So either handicap manipulation doesn't happen in Scotland or they don't care or England and Ireland are overreacting.....or........

 

[D-S]

It appears Scotland won't be joining this club...they've decided to not enforce the restrictions like England and Ireland
So either handicap manipulation doesn't happen in Scotland or they don't care or England and Ireland are overreacting.....or........

Time to start putting some low GP scores in and enter the Scottish Amateur, Dornoch in August should be pretty good?

 

[Teebs]

I last had a handicap in 2014 using the old system.
What was really surprising last year was playing with different Golfers who all had handicaps between 2 and scratch and their general level of play (poor). Appreciate there's many variables in this statement, but I still think there's a level of manipulation with the new system that suits people to play to a handicap that doesn't fit them.

That's really my opinion of an outsider looking inwards. I still need to establish my handicap soon, so who knows what that'll spit out...

 

[Deleted member 30522]

It appears Scotland won't be joining this club...they've decided to not enforce the restrictions like England and Ireland
So either handicap manipulation doesn't happen in Scotland or they don't care or England and Ireland are overreacting.....or........

....or....as with non-qualifying winter periods, those who make the decisions at SG are playing to the blazers "oh look at us doing everything like we're supposed to to the letter of WHS"

 

[D-S]

I understand that EG will automatically exclude, from their elite competitions, players who with more than 4 GP rounds in their latest 20 scores, if there is a 2 or more shot lower difference between their GP and competition scores.
The most recent published quote shows that this is not just an extra way of separating an oversubscribed field, but a reaction to manipulation.
”The intention of this pilot scheme is to highlight that we are aware of some players’ misuse of the WHS and the returning of General Play scores to lower their handicap to a level that is not reflective of their ability under competition play conditions,” England Golf’s director of championships James Crampton told NCG.”

 

[rulefan]

I'm sure my county is no different to others but I would guess that well over 75% of the field do not play to their handicap when playing in their county (scratch) championship. It shows the difference in pressure between elite comps and other scores.

 

[D-S]

I'm sure my county is no different to others but I would guess that well over 75% of the field do not play to their handicap when playing in their county (scratch) championship. It shows the difference in pressure between elite comps and other scores.

Certainly this is the case here too. 36 hole scratch events in good weather normally had the old CSS increasing a lot against Mens Opens in similar conditions. Although here of course, EG are highlighting difference between GP and all competition scores not just elite ones.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm sure my county is no different to others but I would guess that well over 75% of the field do not play to their handicap when playing in their county (scratch) championship. It shows the difference in pressure between elite comps and other scores.

Perhaps England Golf are mistaken then?

 

[wjemather]

I'm sure my county is no different to others but I would guess that well over 75% of the field do not play to their handicap when playing in their county (scratch) championship. It shows the difference in pressure between elite comps and other scores.

Since (on average) players can only be expected to play to handicap one fifth of the time, only about 20% of the field should be playing to handicap in any competition, never mind on a possibly unfamiliar course that is potentially setup stronger than normal. As I've said many times, there is a disconnect between what some perceive scoring should be and what is actually realistic - and when the Course Rating is over 75 and significantly above par, the disconnect is even greater.

Compared to other factors, I see "pressure" as having a comparatively negligible effect for experienced players (which most are); it can even have a positive effect for many as concentration levels are increased.