Radical thoughts for the WHS article

[wjemather]

Honest question, hows that going? There was alot of hearsay that many open comps wouldnt welcome igolfers? As I refuse to sign up to golf empire ive now way to check if thats true or not!

It's not something I've noticed; only a small minority of opens seem to be specifying club membership as a criteria (although it may be hidden deeper in the terms rather than published overtly on the poster/website/advert). However, my response related specifically to the claim that players who don't play comps wouldn't want handicaps - which is just hysterical nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Steve Carrol is off on one again, his hobby horse at the moment

https://twitter.com/x/status/1622938334149455872

Seems we should just suck up the problems with WHS and get used to pointless inaccurate handicaps like Murica

We’re they more accurate under the old system? I’m not convinced it was any better.

 

[wjemather]

How many do you think would have done so if Covid hadn't rumbled in?

I don't think it would be significantly different; although it's conceivable that iGolf take-up could have been even higher, due to the number of players who joined clubs who would have been attracted.

 

[wjemather]

We’re they more accurate under the old system? I’m not convinced it was any better.

For several reasons, handicaps were significantly less accurate under the old system.

 

[BillyTheFish777]

However if you follow the US model, it is mandatory to submit every round so players will be obliged to do so, no choice in the matter. Hence my comment.

Can someone please point me at a part of a document that confirms the mandatory requirement for scorecards in the US. The Rules of Handicapping document on the USGA website is strikingly similar to the one available from the R&A, and England Golf. I admit to not checking other UK bodies.

In both the documents from the USGA and R&A it states that players are EXPECTED to return scorecards, I can't find in the USGA document where it states they MUST return scorecards. If I've missed it, can someone please point it out to me.

Or, maybe, this is another myth that has built up over time - it certainly won't be the first time it has happened. Perhaps it's just traditional in the US that players submit cards all the time?

 

[upsidedown]

When we emigrated to NZ in 2007 I was off about a 7 handicap and for the first 6 months of their version of what is now the WHS , both my wife and I hated it , just seemed so wrong and would have agreed with all the posts above that see all the negatives and the what if's .
But after those 6 months we came to accept it and got on it with it. I've always been of a mindset to get my handicap low as possible and my wife also . I'd play in all the competitions I could, 1-2 a week. If doing a "Social round" would have Gimmies and a "Ringer" ( now known as most likely score) and put the card in good or bad.
We put cards in for Inter club Matchplay as they were the rules and those included most likely scores for holes not played . I'm pretty sure we also did 4BBB scores as well but cant be 100% certain.

Within a year I was off 5 , and when chatting to a UK friend who used to Summer at our club every year we reckoned there was a 2 shot difference between NZ handicaps and UK Congu ones. The next couple of years my game improved and by the time we came back to UK I was off 2.8 but had to put 3 cards in for a Congu handicap and it came out at 5.6 , no complaints as cards were done in March .

So moving forward to the WHS implication and having hovered around 4 to 5 Congu dropped to 3.1 WHS and 3.4 at the moment .

Would my NZ handicap been lower if I didn't play the Competitions , who knows but I know the thought of having a "card" in my hand was long gone. Did i take on Hero shots whilst playing social golf , you bet , did I put the card in , yeah sure did. Did we have fun and play for the beer on the side, oh yes very much so, they are so much more laid back out there. I even played 9 holes with a young dad who had his 6 month year old baby in it's buggy

What I'm trying to say that in nearly six years of playing did the system effect my handicap ? No in my opinion , not a jote , but as said before no longer feared the Competition card .

Were there handicap manipulators out there ? Not to the best of my knowledge , the guys who had "their day " still had the mick taken by calling them bandits . The older guys indexes went up over the Winter ( really only 2 months long " more than the younger ones and they would feature strongly in early season prizes, 20 Dollar meat packs !!. But then the field levelled out .

Do I do GP scores now? I've done a few but most of my golf now is 4BBB and Matchplay so not allowed.

What the future holds , no idea

 

[D-S]

Can someone please point me at a part of a document that confirms the mandatory requirement for scorecards in the US. The Rules of Handicapping document on the USGA website is strikingly similar to the one available from the R&A, and England Golf. I admit to not checking other UK bodies.

In both the documents from the USGA and R&A it states that players are EXPECTED to return scorecards, I can't find in the USGA document where it states they MUST return scorecards. If I've missed it, can someone please point it out to me.

Or, maybe, this is another myth that has built up over time - it certainly won't be the first time it has happened. Perhaps it's just traditional in the US that players submit cards all the time?

From the rules
“

• If the Handicap Committee concludes that a player failed to submit a score for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, it should consider withdrawing the player’s Handicap Index, and/or applying an appropriate penalty score (high or low depending on intent).
• The Handicap Committee or the Authorized Association should consider disciplinary procedures for players who repeatedly fail to submit their scores or who fail to complete rounds.

Those are from Section 7.1b

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

Also from clubs FAQs
“
Do I have to post all my scores every time I play?
Post almost every score. The general rule is for every round played a golf score will be posted.
There are very few exceptions, but there are frequent misunderstandings about whether a score is “acceptable” or how it should be posted.
Post scores in all forms of competition: match play, stroke play, and team competitions where each player plays his or her own ball. Post 9-hole scores. Post scores for rounds interrupted by weather, sickness or other reasons. Post scores for rounds using “lift clean and place” or other
preferred lies. Post scores if you are disqualified for any reason (perhaps not signing a score card) but you had a score.
Scores not posted: These are the few exceptions to the general rule:
Do not post scores in scramble events or in alternate shot events because individual scores cannot be determined.
Do not post scores on executive courses or unrated courses.
Do not post scores in events that do not allow 14 clubs (for example, irons only competitions.)
Do not post scores when you play by yourself.”

From regional golf associations
https://www.scga.org/scga-blog2/view/getting-members-to-post

 

[BillyTheFish777]

From the rules
“

• If the Handicap Committee concludes that a player failed to submit a score for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, it should consider withdrawing the player’s Handicap Index, and/or applying an appropriate penalty score (high or low depending on intent).
• The Handicap Committee or the Authorized Association should consider disciplinary procedures for players who repeatedly fail to submit their scores or who fail to complete rounds.

Those are from Section 7.1b

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

Also from clubs FAQs
“
Do I have to post all my scores every time I play?
Post almost every score. The general rule is for every round played a golf score will be posted.
There are very few exceptions, but there are frequent misunderstandings about whether a score is “acceptable” or how it should be posted.
Post scores in all forms of competition: match play, stroke play, and team competitions where each player plays his or her own ball. Post 9-hole scores. Post scores for rounds interrupted by weather, sickness or other reasons. Post scores for rounds using “lift clean and place” or other
preferred lies. Post scores if you are disqualified for any reason (perhaps not signing a score card) but you had a score.
Scores not posted: These are the few exceptions to the general rule:
Do not post scores in scramble events or in alternate shot events because individual scores cannot be determined.
Do not post scores on executive courses or unrated courses.
Do not post scores in events that do not allow 14 clubs (for example, irons only competitions.)
Do not post scores when you play by yourself.”

From regional golf associations
https://www.scga.org/scga-blog2/view/getting-members-to-post

I have emboldened the text that is relevant. Perhaps players aren't failing to post scores for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage. Therefore this doesn't apply.

The link to the other page isn't part of the USGA Rules of Handicapping.

I 'm still not convinced it is MANDATORY.

Anyway...

Just because I choose to not put every score in doesn't mean I'm on a mission to clean up next season. I choose not to put scores in for a number of reasons - the course conditions are are poor; it's freezing cold; I don't want to hang around holing out every putt.

My handicap will be about right come the start of the new season - I know that and the people I play with know that - I've reached the limit of my ability. If I can't play to it when the season starts it will work it's way to where it needs to be. I don't care if that takes a while.

I won't put all my social golf score in even if it's mandatory - and I mean the rules explicitly state that it's mandatory.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Honest question, hows that going? There was alot of hearsay that many open comps wouldnt welcome igolfers? As I refuse to sign up to golf empire ive now way to check if thats true or not!

It's happening in Scotland, few clubs now not accepting SG members.

 

[sweaty sock]

It's happening in Scotland, few clubs now not accepting SG members.

Yeah i had a dig around, it seems about 20% of pairs comps are 'WHS only" rather than "WHS and igolf". And alot more singles opens dont seem to allow igolf maybe a bit more than 50% from my totally arbitrary search.

Its the really big ones with attractive and lucrative prizes that seem mostly to accept igolf members, I assume because profit is a bigger concern than sporting integrity....

 

[wjemather]

Yeah i had a dig around, it seems about 20% of pairs comps are 'WHS only" rather than "WHS and igolf". And alot more singles opens dont seem to allow igolf maybe a bit more than 50% from my totally arbitrary search.

Its the really big ones with attractive and lucrative prizes that seem mostly to accept igolf members, I assume because profit is a bigger concern than sporting integrity....

iGolf is WHS.

All you are doing by finding clubs that state "iGolf and WHS" is finding clubs highlighting that they are welcoming iGolf members (and/or are ignorant of the difference/intersection).

What you would need to survey is whether union affiliated club membership is a condition of entry, or if iGolf is specifically excluded.

 

[D-S]

As Peer review is part of WHS, can anyone explain how iGolf handicaps are reviewed?
If not, how can they be equivalent to WHS handicaps?

 

[sweaty sock]

iGolf is WHS.

All you are doing by finding clubs that state "iGolf and WHS" is finding clubs highlighting that they are welcoming iGolf members (and/or are ignorant of the difference/intersection).

What you would need to survey is whether union affiliated club membership is a condition of entry, or if iGolf is specifically excluded.

Like this?

 

[wjemather]

Like this?
View attachment 46391

Precisely. Can't get much more explicit than that!

PS: use the word "social" in the competition title is probably inappropriate given their exclusionary terms of competition.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

As Peer review is part of WHS, can anyone explain how iGolf handicaps are reviewed?
If not, how can they be equivalent to WHS handicaps?

Exactly my objection to the Scottish Golf "Open Play" scheme as well. They claim they'll conduct annual reviews, how? Are you telling me Quentin sitting in Edinburgh has a thorough knowledge of Erchie in Wick's golf game? It's a nonsense, hence partly why club's aren;t letting Open Play golfers enter opens.

 

[wjemather]

As Peer review is part of WHS, can anyone explain how iGolf handicaps are reviewed?
If not, how can they be equivalent to WHS handicaps?

They are not equivalent to WHS handicaps - they are WHS handicaps.

All scores must be attested by other players with MyEG accounts - these are the peers; and England Golf has an iGolf handicap committee that follows the same processes as any club committee (should be doing).

Consider that a significant proportion of clubs do not even have a handicap committee (despite it being a requirement of union affiliation) or do not have one that fulfils all their duties adequately - how do handicaps from these clubs compare? It's reasonable to assume iGolf handicaps undergo more scrutiny than a great many of these clubs.

 

[wjemather]

Exactly my objection to the Scottish Golf "Open Play" scheme as well. They claim they'll conduct annual reviews, how? Are you telling me Quentin sitting in Edinburgh has a thorough knowledge of Erchie in Wick's golf game? It's a nonsense, hence partly why club's aren;t letting Open Play golfers enter opens.

Another fallacy. Club handicap committees do not have "thorough knowledge" (or even any knowledge beyond what is on the system) of most of their members golf games.

 

[D-S]

Another fallacy. Club handicap committees do not have "thorough knowledge" (or even any knowledge beyond what is on the system) of most of their members golf games.

So who does the job of the Handicap Committee in regard to iGolf members?
Who does the Annual Reviw?
Who should a peer advise if they think an iGolfers handicap is not representative of their ability?
Who prevents an iGolfer manipulating their handicap?
Who freezes or withdraws an iGolfer’s handicap?

 

[sweaty sock]

What regulates the igolfer membership. A quick look at the form suggests I could I have two email addresses and register twice, attest all my own scores and Maurice Flitcroft the Open?

Obviously England Golf have scuppered any ideas I have for the British Amatuer by not allowing general play rounds in my fake record, undermining the system entirely for elite golfers.... but hey ho

 

[wjemather]

So who does the job of the Handicap Committee in regard to iGolf members? England Golf created an iGolf handicap committee
Who does the Annual Reviw? the iGolf handicap committee
Who should a peer advise if they think an iGolfers handicap is not representative of their ability? the iGolf handicap committee
Who prevents an iGolfer manipulating their handicap? other golfers and the iGolf handicap committee (no different for a club member)
Who freezes or withdraws an iGolfer’s handicap? the iGolf handicap committee

I guess you missed post #97?

What regulates the igolfer membership. A quick look at the form suggests I could I have two email addresses and register twice, attest all my own scores and Maurice Flitcroft the Open?

Obviously England Golf have scuppered any ideas I have for the British Amatuer by not allowing general play rounds in my fake record, undermining the system entirely for elite golfers.... but hey ho

There really isn't an argument here that doesn't apply equally to golfers who are members of clubs.