Who wins?

[fundy]

Anyone off 18 fancy doing this with me (I’m off 2 but I think the outcome would be the same). I’d pay for someone’s green fee at burnham

cant believe youve not found a willing volunteer for this Sam!

 

[sunshine]

In the last 20 years I'd say I'm not overly long off the tee but I can chip and putt well. In the last 5 years I'd say most players, irrespective of handicap, knock it well past me - old age. I might hit a few more fairways but what has always set me apart from the mid/high handicappers is chipping and putting. Hitting 3 more fairways might make me 3 shots better. Hitting a few more greens will take it to 6 shots better. Where do I get the other 5 or 6 shots? Chipping and putting.

Every aspect of the game makes a difference but its saving shots around the green that has the biggest impact.

Are you a professional Hobbit? And you find most 18 handicappers knock it well past you?

I'm surprised. I know there are a small number of high handicappers who can bomb it miles, but in my experience older pros can still hit it a decent distance because of good swing mechanics, and invariably pretty straight, even though the swing speed has reduced.

I remember playing with a guy in his 70s a couple of years ago who was still off 2. Smooth slow swing but was hitting his driver 250 yards.

 

[Scozzy]

I think the real trick here separating the poor old 18hcap and the pro/"better player" is decision making.

Example..

Mr 18hcp is looking at a 165yd shot to pin,pulls a 7iron because his very best shot in perfect conditions is 165.He ignores pretty much every other factor on the day (weather,lie, ground condition etc) and comes up short/bunkered and now the short game is under pressure and par is gone.The pro? He takes a moment to consider all above,grips down on his 6i and swings smoothly and is pin high looking at birdie or par at worst.Next tee, tight bunkered fairway to short par 4 ,who do you think ignores the bail out area short of the bunkers leaving an easy short iron and is in another bunker muttering to himself ?? And so it goes....

 

[Hobbit]

It means they will hit it closer to the flag with less club and therefore have more chance of holing the putt, which is why they score better than you and have a lower handicap. Their bad days will beat your bad days and their good days beat your good days. 9 times out of 10 they will beat you because you don’t hit it far enough to be any better than you are

You're making a bit of an assumption on whether or not a scratch player is better in every dept than say a 3-4-5 handicapper. Their good game will always beat my good game, and their bad game will always beat my bad game. But I'd put money on my good game beating their bad game off scratch. Bearing in mind, my good game is better than level par and a scratch player's bad game will be over par.

And just because someone is past their prime, distance-wise, doesn't necessarily mean their short game/putting has deteriorated to the same extent.

Are you a professional Hobbit? And you find most 18 handicappers knock it well past you?

I'm surprised. I know there are a small number of high handicappers who can bomb it miles, but in my experience older pros can still hit it a decent distance because of good swing mechanics, and invariably pretty straight, even though the swing speed has reduced.

I remember playing with a guy in his 70s a couple of years ago who was still off 2. Smooth slow swing but was hitting his driver 250 yards.

No not a pro. I got to low single figures in '76 and have been there or thereabouts since then. I've played with a 71 yr old retired pro a few times in the last 6 months. His worst round will be 3 or 4 over par. Distance-wise we're about the same but accuracy into the green he is better than good. His putting isn't startling though.

I think the real trick here separating the poor old 18hcap and the pro/"better player" is decision making.

Example..

Mr 18hcp is looking at a 165yd shot to pin,pulls a 7iron because his very best shot in perfect conditions is 165.He ignores pretty much every other factor on the day (weather,lie, ground condition etc) and comes up short/bunkered and now the short game is under pressure and par is gone.The pro? He takes a moment to consider all above,grips down on his 6i and swings smoothly and is pin high looking at birdie or par at worst.Next tee, tight bunkered fairway to short par 4 ,who do you think ignores the bail out area short of the bunkers leaving an easy short iron and is in another bunker muttering to himself ?? And so it goes....

Yesterday; short par 4 270yds, tight fairway with water running down the right and in front of the green, OOB left. I hit 9 iron then 8 iron to a back pin. 2 of the 3 guys I was playing with hit driver into the water, and they had a shot on the hole. What a waste of a shot.

 

[Grant85]

You're making a bit of an assumption on whether or not a scratch player is better in every dept than say a 3-4-5 handicapper. Their good game will always beat my good game, and their bad game will always beat my bad game. But I'd put money on my good game beating their bad game off scratch. Bearing in mind, my good game is better than level par and a scratch player's bad game will be over par.

Obviously I don't know your game, but I would say you have to take into account the courses that the Pros play. Being much longer and set up much harder than most members courses.

 

[clubchamp98]

I remember playing Northrop Hall the day after a pro event .
The way it was set up was the hardest test I have ever played.
Some of the pins looked like they were in the woods.

By the way there’s an ex pro at my club 95yrs old now off 12 ,great golfer not long but straight as a die .
but what a short game ,he’s a pleasure to watch and play with.

 

[Hobbit]

Obviously I don't know your game, but I would say you have to take into account the courses that the Pros play. Being much longer and set up much harder than most members courses.

Absolutely, although I thought the debate was about mid/high 'v' low and what part of their games make the biggest difference. A few years back I had the pleasure of Lytham on the Monday(media/sponsor's day) after the Open. Being there on that course set up was both amazing and soul destroying. Hitting the fairways wasn't too difficult but every par 4 felt like a par 5. The greens were amazing!

 

[jim8flog]

No it isn’t - they also take 1/2/3 less shots on every hole to get to near the green!

so for example it's a mid to short par 3 are you saying the am player will get no where near the green!!!? same for a mid length par 4.

The only time I can see this being a big difference is with long par 4s and par 5 but only if the AM player is a short hitter.

When I was a 22 handicap player I could drive a ball (wooden head clubs and wound golf balls ) around the 300 mark and my SW length was around the 130-140 mark it was just that there was no guarantee of direction and my brother could hit the same of sort of distances. Strength and timing came because we were both natural sports men and played other sports such a squash which gave the required muscles.

I have said for years "how far you can hit a ball is no indicator of handicap"

 

[Dibby]

so for example it's a mid to short par 3 are you saying the am player will get no where near the green!!!? same for a mid length par 4.

The only time I can see this being a big difference is with long par 4s and par 5 but only if the AM player is a short hitter.

When I was a 22 handicap player I could drive a ball (wooden head clubs and wound golf balls ) around the 300 mark and my SW length was around the 130-140 mark it was just that there was no guarantee of direction and my brother could hit the same of sort of distances. Strength and timing came because we were both natural sports men and played other sports such a squash which gave the required muscles.

I have said for years "how far you can hit a ball is no indicator of handicap"

I would bet money that distance has a pretty strong inverse correlation with handicap. There will always be outliers, shorter hitting lower handicaps and pros, and longer higher handicaps, but for the majority, the rule will apply. You were most likely one of these outliers.

To hit it a long way requires athleticism and good mechanics. If you can't hit the middle of the face, you won't hit it that far, and if you hit the middle of the face, you would generally be a good player. There are loads of 300+ yard 20-30 handicappers on the internet, but I have yet to meet any of these when I play.

 

[Orikoru]

I would bet money that distance has a pretty strong inverse correlation with handicap. There will always be outliers, shorter hitting lower handicaps and pros, and longer higher handicaps, but for the majority, the rule will apply. You were most likely one of these outliers.

To hit it a long way requires athleticism and good mechanics. If you can't hit the middle of the face, you won't hit it that far, and if you hit the middle of the face, you would generally be a good player. There are loads of 300+ yard 20-30 handicappers on the internet, but I have yet to meet any of these when I play.

If I could hit every club 30 yards further than I do, I would definitely be lower handicap I reckon. As I said earlier it means hitting shorter clubs into every green, which are easier to hit.

 

[MendieGK]

cant believe youve not found a willing volunteer for this Sam!

Someone has been in contact mate

 

[fundy]

Someone has been in contact mate

good to hear, look forward to hearing how it goes

 

[sunshine]

I think the real trick here separating the poor old 18hcap and the pro/"better player" is decision making.

Example..

Mr 18hcp is looking at a 165yd shot to pin,pulls a 7iron because his very best shot in perfect conditions is 165.He ignores pretty much every other factor on the day (weather,lie, ground condition etc) and comes up short/bunkered and now the short game is under pressure and par is gone.The pro? He takes a moment to consider all above,grips down on his 6i and swings smoothly and is pin high looking at birdie or par at worst.Next tee, tight bunkered fairway to short par 4 ,who do you think ignores the bail out area short of the bunkers leaving an easy short iron and is in another bunker muttering to himself ?? And so it goes....

So an 18 handicapper is too dumb to understand that weather, ground conditions etc affect the ball? Or are you assuming that a complete beginner starts off with a handicap of 18? There are plenty of 18 handicappers (and higher) on here who can answer better, but in my experience higher handicappers are perfectly capable of recognising a shot into the wind requires more club.

The biggest difference between a pro and 18 hcp is an efficient repeatable swing.

 

[MendieGK]

So an 18 handicapper is too dumb to understand that weather, ground conditions etc affect the ball? Or are you assuming that a complete beginner starts off with a handicap of 18? There are plenty of 18 handicappers (and higher) on here who can answer better, but in my experience higher handicappers are perfectly capable of recognising a shot into the wind requires more club.

The biggest difference between a pro and 18 hcp is an efficient repeatable swing.

Higher handicappers make considerably worse decisions on a regular basis and it 100% affects their scoring ability

 

[Homer]

so for example it's a mid to short par 3 are you saying the am player will get no where near the green!!!? same for a mid length par 4.

The only time I can see this being a big difference is with long par 4s and par 5 but only if the AM player is a short hitter.

When I was a 22 handicap player I could drive a ball (wooden head clubs and wound golf balls ) around the 300 mark and my SW length was around the 130-140 mark it was just that there was no guarantee of direction and my brother could hit the same of sort of distances. Strength and timing came because we were both natural sports men and played other sports such a squash which gave the required muscles.

I have said for years "how far you can hit a ball is no indicator of handicap"

And for years you have been wrong!

 

[sunshine]

I would bet money that distance has a pretty strong inverse correlation with handicap. There will always be outliers, shorter hitting lower handicaps and pros, and longer higher handicaps, but for the majority, the rule will apply. You were most likely one of these outliers.

To hit it a long way requires athleticism and good mechanics. If you can't hit the middle of the face, you won't hit it that far, and if you hit the middle of the face, you would generally be a good player. There are loads of 300+ yard 20-30 handicappers on the internet, but I have yet to meet any of these when I play.

What do you mean? John Daly was the only player on tour to average 300+ yards off the tee in late 90's (with steel driver), but I'm sure there were loads of amateurs who hit the ball further with a wooden driver.

 

[sunshine]

Higher handicappers make considerably worse decisions on a regular basis and it 100% affects their scoring ability

Yes completely agree.

But I would say that poor execution causes more dropped shots than poor decision making.