Golf’s Major Problems

[rulefan]

From personal experience one of the major faults with the UHS was the failure to deal adequately with the declining golfer. It required intervention from a handicap committee and again from my experience some people on handicap committees are very loathe to increase handicap proportionally. This has been majorly affected by the WHS I have seen many older players get proportionate increases in their handicaps since it came in.

That and Slope have contributed to the complaints coming from many low cappers who are no longer featuring in the prizes. Poor things.
Although some committees seem to have been reluctant to push older members to take the strokes that the Annual Review recommended.

 

[rosecott]

1. Rubbish. please provide hard evidence to support this stance. Anecdotal evidence will not do.
2/3. How have 54 handicaps changed things? how many 50+ handicappers do you know/have at your club? how often are 50+, hell, lets include 40+ handicappers, winning stuff at your club?
4. Highly unlikely that a golfer who shoots 46 points on day x will not be playing off a lower handicap a few days later.

Like many folks who don't like the handicapping system, you are spouting unsubstantiated nonsense with no evidence to back up your claims.

And, as far as I remember, making a General Play reduction based on a single instance from a non-qualifier was specifically advised against.

 

[Depreston]

From personal experience one of the major faults with the UHS was the failure to deal adequately with the declining golfer. It required intervention from a handicap committee and again from my experience some people on handicap committees are very loathe to increase handicap proportionally. This has been majorly affected by the WHS I have seen many older players get proportionate increases in their handicaps since it came in.


I am someone who is in favour of the WHS in general having extensive experience of both (so far) having been part of a handicap committee for 10 years.

One of the other big plusses has to be course /playing handicap according to what course you will be playing on. In the near 40 years I have lived in Somerset I have played nearly every course in Dorset and a quite a few in Somerset and surrounding counties. I used to know which courses I could expect to play to my handicap, which better and which worse.
Playing lots of seniors interclub matches we knew which club we were very unlikely to beat.

First point is an interesting one and seen the benefits first hand

Play with a lad who was a 5 capper under Congu (we looked at his past scores on eg app and under WHS he’d have been a 2.7 index) started going into serious decline just before the change drives could be 50 yards off line in either direction and irons fat or thin or massive right miss.

He’s currently off 14.3. under Congu it could have taken him twice as long to get to a fair handicap and probably would have packed playing in

 

[IanM]

And, as far as I remember, making a General Play reduction based on a single instance from a non-qualifier was specifically advised against.

I moved house and hence clubs quite a bit in the 90s and early 2000s and got the impression that handicap secs did as they saw fit! Some cut you if they saw you hole a putt on the practice green!!

 

[Voyager EMH]

Under the old system, you could be off 5, put two consecutive scores in playing to scratch and you would be off 4.
Now you can come down much faster.
Those with a desire to get to scratch can do so in one summer over a few weeks rather than it taking 3 or 4 years.

Similar to jim8flog, I used to be aware of which courses in my county would see me with a higher or lower handicap, if I should join there.
Now the ratings have evened that out to a great extent.

The downside of the new system is how many people are not yet understanding it enough to be comfortable with it.

Gripes about high handicappers winning too many prizes is one for individual clubs to deal with. A national strategy on this is not feasible in my view.
I prefer completely separate competitions for the very high handicappers, rather than divisions in board comps.
As a junior, we had handicaps up to 36, but had to improve in order to play in anything other than junior only comps.

A new group of very high handicappers was created, but clubs were ill-prepared to cater for them properly.

 

[Voyager EMH]

If you want a spreadsheet to work out what you need to do next round, you need to get out a bit more!

I need to get out a bit more.

 

[simsini]

The new system is great. I could play Wentworth off the tips before and get the same number of shots as playing my local 5000 yard public course. Now there would be a 9 shot difference which takes into account the difficulty of the course.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Going to be really controversial.. I like whs. I find the EG app easy to use to add score cards.

I like the fact I can see how my mates been playing recently and compare cards

Don't see the fuss

WHS is what it is. My moan is the lack of joined up thinking.

When I go to South Africa for two months, I'm supposed to change home club and supply scores for the past year. Very sensible as this captures the lowest index. This should be very easy in principle; just enter all my English scores into the HNA app. I play competitions in South Africa so want my handicap to be up to date. I mainly play casual, 9 hole rounds in the UK.

So what's the problem? The HNA app. doesn't allow 9 hole foreign scores.

 

[jim8flog]

First point is an interesting one and seen the benefits first hand

Play with a lad who was a 5 capper under Congu (we looked at his past scores on eg app and under WHS he’d have been a 2.7 index) started going into serious decline just before the change drives could be 50 yards off line in either direction and irons fat or thin or massive right miss.

He’s currently off 14.3. under Congu it could have taken him twice as long to get to a fair handicap and probably would have packed playing in

I too was once 5 now 13.7.

Originally I only went to 8 after insisting upon a review and it was met will howls of derision by a few of my mates. One even complained to the Captain who discussed it with the head of the handicap committee.

Under the UHS it was virtually impossible to get to a correct higher handicap. Even when I went 8 I should have gone to 9 based upon scores

 

[MadAdey]

I didnt see Congu issues being ironed out at all, they were there for a long time.

I agree CONGU was ridiculous and had so many people playing off handicaps that were way too high. As a junior golfer they never really had me off the correct handicap for a couple of years. Getting in the top 3 on multiple occasions also winning a fair share, getting to the final of both the singles and pairs knockouts as well as winning the winter league tells me that my handicap was not right. I remember it took 2 years before my handicap to catch up with my ability. I only remember this as all I cared about was my handicap going down and it was impossible to get it cut fast.

 

[4LEX]

The WHS is a farce. I've said before I don't bother entering club comps unless it's scratch ones these days. Way too many dodgy handicaps and I'd need to shoot a course record to finish in the top three! The maximum handicaps should be 18 men and 24 ladies, end of story. It would motivate new players to get to that level.

The new system is also easy to manipulate handicaps so higher ones can hoover up all the trophies.

 

[abjectplop]

The new system is great. I could play Wentworth off the tips before and get the same number of shots as playing my local 5000 yard public course. Now there would be a 9 shot difference which takes into account the difficulty of the course.

There was a mechanism for that in the old system....whilst you'd have had the same handicap, you'd be playing to the SSS which would be vastly different at Wentworth and your local 5000y course.

 

[howbow88]

Agree on the cost of living. When your local average course was £15/20 pre COVID and it's now £35/40 that's going to have a big impact.

(I know EVERYTHING has gone up too but that also plays a part in not having spare cash for hobbies etc)

It's the biggest impact for me. I'm no longer a member anywhere, so I'm happy to stump up a green fee, but so many completely average courses are asking for £40 for a bloody twilight round?! I'm struggling to justify that, particularly as a number of courses are still not in the best nick due to the poor weather.

 

[wjemather]

The WHS is a farce. I've said before I don't bother entering club comps unless it's scratch ones these days. Way too many dodgy handicaps and I'd need to shoot a course record to finish in the top three! The maximum handicaps should be 18 men and 24 ladies, end of story. It would motivate new players to get to that level.

Where is your evidence of "dodgy handicaps"? It just seems like lazy labelling of higher handicappers you have convinced yourself you cannot compete with, presumably because you were comfortable with, and had become complacent under, the old system that gave you a 2-3 stroke (and more) advantage over them, and you don't like having to compete on an equitable basis.

The simple truth is that higher handicappers are winning most often because there are vastly more of them and they now have a handicap system that treats them fairly.

The average handicap in England is about 17 for men and 28 for women. Lowering limits to 18 and 24 would alienate about half of all golfers. Someone who hits the ball a little over 100 yards with a driver is never going to get anywhere near 18 (or 24).

 

[wjemather]

There was a mechanism for that in the old system....whilst you'd have had the same handicap, you'd be playing to the SSS which would be vastly different at Wentworth and your local 5000y course.

Slope was never accounted for.

 

[Springveldt]

There was a mechanism for that in the old system....whilst you'd have had the same handicap, you'd be playing to the SSS which would be vastly different at Wentworth and your local 5000y course.

Did anyone ever use the SSS though and did that even account for slope?

 

[rudebhoy]

And, as far as I remember, making a General Play reduction based on a single instance from a non-qualifier was specifically advised against.

Guy at our place won the first 2 seniors comps by a decent margin (scoring circa 40 points on both occasions) but never got cut because they were non-qualifiers. He then won the first seniors board comp, which was a qualifier, and got a whopping 0.2 cut.

I would argue that there is a case for him getting a GP cut after winning the first 2 comps, particularly given he went on to beat me on countback in the board comp

More pertinently, he is obviously still well ahead of the handicapper, and should get a GP cut now?

 

[simsini]

There was a mechanism for that in the old system....whilst you'd have had the same handicap, you'd be playing to the SSS which would be vastly different at Wentworth and your local 5000y course.

Not 9 shots different, usually just 1 or 2.

 

[abjectplop]

Not 9 shots different, usually just 1 or 2.

The SSS at Wentworth Championship was 76. What was the equivalent at your local 5000y course...1 or 2 less than that?!!!

I suspect the actual SSS of a 5000y course would be approximately 9 less than 76, possibly more.

I'm not saying it was perfect or that it took account of slope, but it was what your golf was measured against in the old system for handicap purposes........literally a measure of difficulty which you said was the benefit of the new system.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The SSS at Wentworth Championship was 76. What was the equivalent at your local 5000y course...1 or 2 less than that?!!!

I suspect the actual SSS of a 5000y course would be approximately 9 less than 76, possibly more.

I'm not saying it was perfect or that it took account of slope, but it was what your golf was measured against in the old system for handicap purposes........literally a measure of difficulty which you said was the benefit of the new system.

I'm at a par 70 course that was SSS 69 off yellows and 71 off whites.
It has course ratings of 69.1 and 70.8.
Plus ça change...