mixed tee competitions handicap adjustments and software

[graham warwick]

Our club has been running mixed tee competitions this year. There is a 5 shot difference in course rating between white and green tees for men which means those playing off the white tees have 5 shots added to playing handicap. This has caused some confusion and upset to lower handicappers and some very low winning scores for competition purposes (I appreciate it does not effect handicap changes). The comp and handicap committee wanted to change to follow the alternative advice in WHS rules i.e. if the majority of the field are playing from the tees with the highest CR then players competing from tees with a lower CR may be allocated less strokes for the round. This means taking 5 shots of playing handicap for those off forward tees. However the software we use (ClubV1) does not seem to have a set up to do this. Has anyone else come across and solved this issue?

 

[jim8flog]

Sounds like you need to check with the ISV if they have incorporated this within the software and request it be added if not.

 

[Old Skier]

Our club has been running mixed tee competitions this year. There is a 5 shot difference in course rating between white and green tees for men which means those playing off the white tees have 5 shots added to playing handicap. This has caused some confusion and upset to lower handicappers and some very low winning scores for competition purposes (I appreciate it does not effect handicap changes). The comp and handicap committee wanted to change to follow the alternative advice in WHS rules i.e. if the majority of the field are playing from the tees with the highest CR then players competing from tees with a lower CR may be allocated less strokes for the round. This means taking 5 shots of playing handicap for those off forward tees. However the software we use (ClubV1) does not seem to have a set up to do this. Has anyone else come across and solved this issue?

Have I got this right?

There is a difference of 5 in the CR - tick
Those playing of the white course get 5 added to HC - tick
The bit I don’t get is that you say that the scores are lower? With 5 extra added I would expect the scores to be higher.

V1 is set up correctly and I doubt they would do any adjustments for one club.

Or have I read this completely wrong.

 

[YandaB]

Have I got this right?

There is a difference of 5 in the CR - tick
Those playing of the white course get 5 added to HC - tick
The bit I don’t get is that you say that the scores are lower? With 5 extra added I would expect the scores to be higher.

V1 is set up correctly and I doubt they would do any adjustments for one club.

Or have I read this completely wrong.

Lower number of strokes not Stableford points I imagine.

 

[rosecott]

Our club has been running mixed tee competitions this year. There is a 5 shot difference in course rating between white and green tees for men which means those playing off the white tees have 5 shots added to playing handicap. This has caused some confusion and upset to lower handicappers and some very low winning scores for competition purposes (I appreciate it does not effect handicap changes). The comp and handicap committee wanted to change to follow the alternative advice in WHS rules i.e. if the majority of the field are playing from the tees with the highest CR then players competing from tees with a lower CR may be allocated less strokes for the round. This means taking 5 shots of playing handicap for those off forward tees. However the software we use (ClubV1) does not seem to have a set up to do this. Has anyone else come across and solved this issue?

Is it me? Perhaps you can spell it out to me with examples. I'm struggling to see how that will change the relationship between one player and another overall.

 

[YandaB]

Is it me? Perhaps you can spell it out to me with examples. I'm struggling to see how that will change the relationship between one player and another overall.

It's not just you. I don't see that it will make much difference at all, the gross scores will be 5 shots higher but in exactly the same order (I suppose that the 95% will make a small difference for a few players). There may be a few more edge cases if you were playing Stableford.

 

[Alan Clifford]

Wouldn't happen if the course rating were included in the course handicap calculation. It would just be accepted as the 5 shot difference would be considered to be correct and norrmal. Because it is!

 

[graham warwick]

Sounds like you need to check with the ISV if they have incorporated this within the software and request it be added if not.

Several emails to them have been met with a stock response 'The calculations used in ClubV1 come directly from the WHS rules of handicapping which you should be able to obtain from your Golf Union. You can find the various documents they have available on their website.'
We have arranged a call to discuss as I don't think the person responding understood the request. It may be they will not do this for one club but the post was to see if others had any similar experiences with any of the ISVs

 

[graham warwick]

Have I got this right?

There is a difference of 5 in the CR - tick
Those playing of the white course get 5 added to HC - tick
The bit I don’t get is that you say that the scores are lower? With 5 extra added I would expect the scores to be higher.

V1 is set up correctly and I doubt they would do any adjustments for one club.

Or have I read this completely wrong.

Perhaps an example and some results better illustrate it
My HI is 10.5. If I play in medal off white tees where all players play off white (par 70 CR 71.4 slope 130) my playing handicap is 11 (95% of 12). I play out of my skin and shoot gross 78; net 67. If I have the same round off the white tees in a multi tee competition with some men playing off green tees (par 68; CR 66.4; slope 120) then my playing handicap is 16 and net score is 62. In the October medal the 4 divisions were won with scores of 64, 61, 67 and 64 and in Sept medal one division was one with net score 59. I understand it does not alter the ranking in the competition which way you do it but adding strokes to the playing handicap produces these scores way below par/CR. The WHS rules do say if the majority of players are playing off the tees with the higher course rating you can deduct shots from the players off the lower course rating and this will produce net scores more close to the par/course rating rather than these artificially low scores.
In response to some other comments as it happens I don't believe the course is 5 shots easier off the green tees but that is another matter!

 

[rulefan]

Perhaps an example and some results better illustrate it.

Two players (A & B) with a HIs of 10.

A plays white tees
CH = 10 x (130/113) = 12
PH = (12 X 95%) + 5 = 16

B plays green tees
CH = 10 x (120/113) = 11
PH = (11 x 95%) = 10

To get a winning net score of net 65 (say)

A would have to shoot 81 gross (81 - 16 = 65)
B would have to shoot 75 gross (76 - 10 = 65)

Reverse it

A plays white tees
CH = 10 x (130/113) = 12
PH = (12 X 95%) = 11

B plays green tees
CH = 10 x (120/113) = 11
PH = (11 x 95%) - 5 = 5

To get a winning net score of net 65 (say)

A would have to shoot 76 gross (76 - 16 = 65)
B would have to shoot 70 gross (70 - 5 = 65)

Reversing the allocation of CRs doesn't seem to make much difference.

******************************************************************************************************************

In response to some other comments as it happens I don't believe the course is 5 shots easier off the green tees but that is another matter!

Just out of interest , what are the lengths of the two ?

 

[graham warwick]

Two players (A & B) with a HIs of 10.

A plays white tees
CH = 10 x (130/113) = 12
PH = (12 X 95%) + 5 = 16

B plays green tees
CH = 10 x (120/113) = 11
PH = (11 x 95%) = 10

To get a winning net score of net 65 (say)

A would have to shoot 81 gross (81 - 16 = 65)
B would have to shoot 75 gross (76 - 10 = 65)

Reverse it

A plays white tees
CH = 10 x (130/113) = 12
PH = (12 X 95%) = 11

B plays green tees
CH = 10 x (120/113) = 11
PH = (11 x 95%) - 5 = 5

To get a winning net score of net 65 (say)

A would have to shoot 76 gross (76 - 16 = 65)
B would have to shoot 70 gross (70 - 5 = 65)

Reversing the allocation of CRs doesn't seem to make much difference.



Just out of interest , what are the lengths of the two ?

White 6456yds Green 5495yds
I am not sure I understand your point above. The issues have been that
1. lower handicap players don't like their playing handicaps being increased by 5 ( I know this is just a perception but this is feedback)
2. The winning scores for medal competitions are artificially low even thought the ranking does not change irrespective which way you account for difference in CR

Anyway my initial post was simply to see if anyone had an ISV that had accomdoated this option!

 

[Jason.H]

Surely the players handicap should be off the white tees then take take off 5 for playing the green tees.

 

[rulefan]

White 6456yds Green 5495yds

I was just demonstrating the difference in gross scores required to produce the same net using the different processes.

The CRs are consistent with that.

 

[Old Skier]

White 6456yds Green 5495yds
I am not sure I understand your point above. The issues have been that
1. lower handicap players don't like their playing handicaps being increased by 5 ( I know this is just a perception but this is feedback)
2. The winning scores for medal competitions are artificially low even thought the ranking does not change irrespective which way you account for difference in CR

Anyway my initial post was simply to see if anyone had an ISV that had accomdoated this option!

Your not going to get any ISV to accommodate this as the ISVs have to comply to the instructions laid out by EG in respect of the WHS. They are just following the correct rules of handicapping which the club MUST follow.

 

[rulefan]

Your not going to get any ISV to accommodate this as the ISVs have to comply to the instructions laid out by EG in respect of the WHS. They are just following the correct rules of handicapping which the club MUST follow.

6.2b(i) Note: provides for an alternative.

 

[jim8flog]

Your not going to get any ISV to accommodate this as the ISVs have to comply to the instructions laid out by EG in respect of the WHS. They are just following the correct rules of handicapping which the club MUST follow.

AS this OP said this is in the Rules of Handicapping.

Rule 6
Page 66
These additional strokes are added to the player’s Playing Handicap as
follows:
Playing
Handicap = (Course Handicap x handicap
allowance) + difference in Course
Ratings
Note: As an alternative, when the majority of the field are playing from the
tees with the highest Course Rating, players competing from a set of tees
with a lower Course Rating may be allocated less strokes for the round,
equal to the difference between the Course Ratings

 

[graham warwick]

As others have said this is entirely within the rules - see page 37 of this document on EG website
https://static.whsplatform.englandg...oads/whs/congu_handicapping_advice_240122.pdf
I think ISVs should provide this option as part of service to clubs. I believe at least one (IG) already does this. Analysis of our recent medal comps shows that given an option of 4 different tees, less than 2% of players choose to play off tees with lowest CR and the majority (60-70%) play off the tees with highest CR

 

[fenwayrich]

As others have said this is entirely within the rules - see page 37 of this document on EG website
https://static.whsplatform.englandg...oads/whs/congu_handicapping_advice_240122.pdf
I think ISVs should provide this option as part of service to clubs. I believe at least one (IG) already does this. Analysis of our recent medal comps shows that given an option of 4 different tees, less than 2% of players choose to play off tees with lowest CR and the majority (60-70%) play off the tees with highest CR

I've only just seen this. We are in exactly the same situation. In the summer we set up our Thursday and Sunday Stableford competitions so that people can play from any rated tee they choose. Our red tees are rated 68.3 for men, yellows 69.3 and whites 72.0, so a four stroke difference. We get a maximum of 2 men (often none) playing off the reds, perhaps 6 off the yellows, and the rest, often 60 to 70, off the whites. Not always a reflection of ability, it's often ego but we can do nothing about that. We have had comments from low handicappers saying 'why can't the white tee be the benchmark and players off yellow and red get fewer shots?' Answer, system doesn't allow it. It's a nonsense but there is nothing we can do.

Just as farcical, if nobody plays from the red tees, when the results are published the points are reduced by one, unless you blobbed the hole where you got the shot that has now been deducted, in which case it stays the same.

 

[rulefan]

Answer, system doesn't allow it. It's a nonsense but there is nothing we can do.

Not sure but did you mean "WHS system does allow it but ISV software doesn't".

 

[fenwayrich]

Not sure but did you mean "WHS system does allow it but ISV software doesn't".

Correct. I seem to recall the authorities previously took the view that giving people fewer shots was undesirable, but they do accept it now in some circumstances. However ClubV1, which we use, always gives the additional strokes for competition purposes.