GM Top 100 rankings - live Q&A today 1-3pm

[JezzE]

Good afternoon all. I’m going to respond first to the comments about exclusivity and cost from this and the earlier main thread…

* For this particular project, we want it to be the Top 100 with no sub criteria, other than we can’t include courses that won't allow access for our assessors (currently Queenwood and Skibo Castle). The assessments are key to our process, so any course we are not able to assess cannot be included, but beyond that every course that allows our assessors access is included.

* Even if we were to exclude the courses that don’t take visitors, that alone would have very little impact on the list as I believe there are only 4 (Wisley, Renaissance, Bearwood Lakes and Loch Lomond) that fall into that category. So a Top 100 without them would hardly look any different, which brings us on to price…

* Firstly, I should say that we have quoted high-season peak rates in the mag, but many of the courses can be played for significantly less at certain times of day or year, or when special deals are available including stay and play deals at some places.

* Beyond that, we don’t believe that price should be a factor in determining a ranking of the very best things, just as it wouldn’t be for a ranking of cars or whatever. Value does come into it, but that is a difficult thing to quantify/assess. Most people have something in their lives that they are prepared to push the boat out for (house, car, TV, musical equipment etc), which others might look at and say "I would never pay that." People have choices as to how to they spend their money and some choose, or are able, to treat themselves to very nice golfing experiences.

* I have always used a car analogy here for two reasons. Generally, people are happy to read about Ferraris and Maseratis even if they have no chance of ever owning one. The success of Top Gear is proof of that. Beyond that, all cars will get you from A to B, but for some people it's about the experience along the way. I think it’s the same with golf courses. On a personal level, I always look back to my pre-Golf Monthly days when Loch Lomond first opened, and have to say I wanted to find out everything I could about it even though as far as I was aware at the time I would have no chance of ever playing it!

* We have done ‘value’ and ‘hidden gem’ projects and lists in the past and will continue to do so. The majority of the courses we cover every month in features like our regular Golfer’s Guide are affordable, but for us the Top 100 is a special project with a different remit celebrating the very best courses in the land.

* Finally, I would just say we have always steered clear of the 'best courses under £50, £60, 100' or whatever the figure is because we believe that to be a fundamentally flawed concept - the kind of money that will perhaps get you on a nice members' club in certain parts of the country, will get you on a Top 100 course in other areas.

 

[JezzE]

What courses do the various panellists really disagree on (if any)? What courses produce your biggest debates? And do any of you have a personal favourite course you'd love to see on the list but can't get it there based on the formal points system or can't convince the others to back?

There are lots of differences of opinion in the whole process. It's not just the three of us, but a far wider panel feeding back their thoughts and views which we then seek to collate and moderate.

Personally, I have two that I think should just be in if it were solely down to me - Slaley Hall's Hunting course which I have always really rated, and Seacroft, a superb links near Skegness that is perhaps not as well known as many of our great links courses.

 

[lobthewedge]

Interested to hear how you guys would score a course like Askernish or Machrihanish Dunes, where the intentionally rustic condition of the course is part of the golfers unique experience.

 

[MikeH]

There is the problem, you need to know the right person to get a round on them.

I think you'd be surprised how many of these clubs you can get a game on if you try hard enouggh either by networking a contact, making friends with the friend of a friend who is a member. Centurion is members and guests only but how many forumers have played it becuase they have accepted an invite from Rick

Rye used to be strictly members and guests only...but if you wrote a nice letter to the secretary saying you were a courses enthusiast and were very keen to play.. you'd get a game

Depends how much you want to play. If you just sit back and expect it to come to you (of make an online booking!) it wont happen.

Bit like pretty girls (or hamdsome men for our female forumers). You have to work a little bit harder!

 

[JezzE]

are courses reassessed every time or just past experience used? Also, do factors such as weather/performance affect your opinion of the course (i know mine do).

how is West Sussex ranked so highly in the rankings all the time? 1 450yd par 5? only 2 balls allowed? dont get it. never will.

We commit to every course on our contender list being visited during the current assessing window, so we are not relying solely on past experiences, but more recent visits that will alert us more fully to the impact of any changes either negative or positive.

In recent years this has resulted in some courses coming onto the list as they improve conditioning, layout or whatever, and others dropping off as things take a slightly backward step for whatever reason.

As for West Sussex, it's horses for courses, of course, but that's certainly one whose presence in the Top 100 I can't remember being queried before. Having just one par 5 should have no bearing on the quality of the course, and in many ways it makes the test stronger overall because you only get that one chance and it comes right at the very start before you're fully warmed up. Mind you, there's no excuse for not being warmed up there with the fantastic practice facilities on offer!

 

[MikeH]

My question is in which categories does Muirfield outscore RCD? I have played both, the latter a few times, and just don't see how anyone would think Muirfield is better. I concede that the food is better at Muirfield, probably.

In the top 5 I think we could all make a case for any of those courses being number 1 - it really is splitting hairs at that level
where in our view does Muirfield outrank RCD...
more consistent over 18 holes RCD has several holes that are signifcantly weaker than its best
the concentric routing means you never play with the wind at your back or in your face for a stretch as you do at RCD
a more special/exclusive feeling there becuase it isnt packed out with visiting golfers
a greater sense of occasion from arrival to departure
better year round conditions as it gets significantly less play
too many blind shots at RCD
more history at Muirfield
a significantly better lunch at Muirfield
no views of caravan parks
less expensive than RCD

In the end this came down to a decision by those who had played both - and we all opted for Muirfield

 

[GB72]

How do you assess the 'welcome' and 'facilities' that you get at a course. Do you run through the full experience from having a meal and a few drinks etc or does time not permit that. Do you ever suspect that the experience that you get at a course changes because you are from GM (most courses must at least known Mike and Jezz on sight even if the visit is not announced). Do you react if you get reports on, for example, the forum, that the experience that the general public is getting does not match the experience that GM have been getting on an assessment visit.

 

[JezzE]

My question is in which categories does Muirfield outscore RCD? I have played both, the latter a few times, and just don't see how anyone would think Muirfield is better. I concede that the food is better at Muirfield, probably.

I speak purely for myself here, though I know at least one other panellist feels the same...

Of course, there's no doubt that RCD wins on the wow factor by a long way, but - and bearing in mind we're talking about trying to find reasons to separate what we are saying are the two best courses in the land - I personally feel it tails off a little midway through the back nine with that slightly less exciting par 3 down into the far corner and the hole that follows that.

Others will point to the number of blind shots, but it is really the above that does it for me.

Muirfield is less spectacular, no doubt about it, but someone the other day asked me to name my least favourite hole on the course, and I struggled to do it. It's just a solid test of golf from start to finish, with no tricks.

 

[MikeH]

On the Top 100 discussion thread, I felt a bit of a lone voice supporting (and understanding) the positions of Royal Liverpool and the Belfry. These 2 venue's seem to come in for forum critisism year after year......could you explain the theory behind how these ended up where they did.

thanks

both are very serious (albeit very different) tests of your game
both benefit from an very high standard of playing surfaces year round
the fact one has hosted numerous Opens and the other Ryder Cups and significant Tour events adds greatly to the sense of occasion knowing your are following in the footsteps of many greats of the game and playing over courses that have witnessed signifciant golfing history
no club/clubhouse boasts more history than RLGC
for an 'elite' club RLGC is incredibly visitor friendly
the sevice at The Belfry from the golf ops team is of a very high standard

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Mike

How are the course assessors selected? I have considered putting my name forward on a few occasions but don't want to spend a nice day out walking round the course with a metaphoric clipboard in my hands. I want to enjoy the day, not feel that I'm 'working'.

 

[JezzE]

Interested to hear how you guys would score a course like Askernish or Machrihanish Dunes, where the intentionally rustic condition of the course is part of the golfers unique experience.

I've played both, and while Askernish would have no aspirations or designs on any overall Top 100 lists, it is a wonderful place to play golf if you can slightly suspend your modern 21st century expectations over conditioning, green speed etc. I have no problem doing that and really enjoy the experience every time I visit, and the course conditioning is improving all the time.

As for Machrihanish Dunes, it is a stirring course that was in our Top 100 but dropped out last time following problems created by the severe winter storms they'd had there. That doesn't mean it's gone forever, but the feedback from assessors this time round suggested there was still some further bedding in of reinstated areas required.

 

[MikeH]

How do you assess the 'welcome' and 'facilities' that you get at a course. Do you run through the full experience from having a meal and a few drinks etc or does time not permit that. Do you ever suspect that the experience that you get at a course changes because you are from GM (most courses must at least known Mike and Jezz on sight even if the visit is not announced). Do you react if you get reports on, for example, the forum, that the experience that the general public is getting does not match the experience that GM have been getting on an assessment visit.

visitor experience covers everything from entering through the gates to leaving at the end of the day.

noting our waistlines it wil come as little surprise to know that we do indeed sample bar and catering offerings and quality/value of the offerings

we (senior panel through to reader panel) would all play quite a lot of contender courses with friends, in matches, as part of charity days ie incognito so get to see a lot warts and all

I also think there is a limit to how much any club can 'roll out the red carpet' in that we visit often at short notice so the main thing - the golf course can't be manipulated for our benefit

we are lucky in that we dont have to pay green fees wherever we go if its for an assessment so there's no issue of being swayed by a freebie

I'd also like to think that being given a ballamrker pitchmark repairer or velour valuables bag as we are at many places has never affected my judgement of a golf course!

 

[MikeH]

County Sligo is a new entry at 93 in your list despite you saying it is one of Colts best courses. What has changed to warrant its inclusion? Personally I am very happy to see it in the top 100

reply from Rob Smith...
County Sligo

County Sligo is one of just four new entries - two of them brand new courses, two who have moved up from the Next 100. Of the two promotions, Parkstone is largely as the result of some major and ongoing enhancements. The promotion of County Sligo, however, is more a reflection of the fact that over the years we have refined and improved our criteria to the stage where they are now stronger than ever. This has enabled us to have a more objective and informed view of what makes the cut, and the overwhelming evidence from all those who have played Rosses Point means that its inclusion is justified. I have been a couple of times, most recently three years ago, and can heartily recommend it. Recent reader visits support this.

 

[IanG]

Mike

How are the course assessors selected? I have considered putting my name forward on a few occasions but don't want to spend a nice day out walking round the course with a metaphoric clipboard in my hands. I want to enjoy the day, not feel that I'm 'working'.

In a related question - There seem to be no ladies on the panel. Will GM try to encourage more ladies to volunteer in future, and do you believe the list compiled from a ladies and gents perspective would be different? Indeed would a perhaps restricted feature focussing on a 'Ladies Top 10' be worth considering from an interest and marketing perspective? I'm sure one or two of the ladies on here would help with testing some top courses.

 

[MendieGK]

Wentworth (West) continues to fall. I am one of few people on the forum the really advocates it. Whats been the recent views of the place? I've always found the greens to be 'below par' for the venue, but feel the course itself is fantastic and the changes were more than appropriate for a venue of such a big event

 

[Canary_Yellow]

In a related question - There seem to be no ladies on the panel. Will GM try to encourage more ladies to volunteer in future, and do you believe the list compiled from a ladies and gents perspective would be different? Indeed would a perhaps restricted feature focussing on a 'Ladies Top 10' be worth considering from an interest and marketing perspective? I'm sure one or two of the ladies on here would help with testing some top courses.

The "welcome" category might be of particular relevance here.

 

[lobthewedge]

Having not played Trump International yet I can only go by the reaction of people that have played it. All agree that it is a masterpiece, while some go as far to say it is the best course they have ever played, including one of your own assessors.

Did the off course politics affect your decision making process when placing it at 14th and do you ever see it climbing higher and dethroning some of the more established golfing greats in the top 10?

 

[GB72]

visitor experience covers everything from entering through the gates to leaving at the end of the day.

noting our waistlines it wil come as little surprise to know that we do indeed sample bar and catering offerings and quality/value of the offerings

we (senior panel through to reader panel) would all play quite a lot of contender courses with friends, in matches, as part of charity days ie incognito so get to see a lot warts and all

I also think there is a limit to how much any club can 'roll out the red carpet' in that we visit often at short notice so the main thing - the golf course can't be manipulated for our benefit

we are lucky in that we dont have to pay green fees wherever we go if its for an assessment so there's no issue of being swayed by a freebie

I'd also like to think that being given a ballamrker pitchmark repairer or velour valuables bag as we are at many places has never affected my judgement of a golf course!

Thanks Mike

Did not mean to infer that any rating is swayed by a freebie, was more looking at the way a club can cater an experience to improve the welcome given to that experienced by the general public in the way of a more friendly welcome, making sure that food and drinks are served quickly etc. Basically just giving it that extra edge on the day which Joe Public there on a deal may not get.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Mike

How are the course assessors selected? I have considered putting my name forward on a few occasions but don't want to spend a nice day out walking round the course with a metaphoric clipboard in my hands. I want to enjoy the day, not feel that I'm 'working'.

Wait! This is a job you can apply for?

In a related question - There seem to be no ladies on the panel. Will GM try to encourage more ladies to volunteer in future, and do you believe the list compiled from a ladies and gents perspective would be different? Indeed would a perhaps restricted feature focussing on a 'Ladies Top 10' be worth considering from an interest and marketing perspective? I'm sure one or two of the ladies on here would help with testing some top courses.

I dare say one or two might be persuaded!

Have metaphorical clipboard, will travel!

 

[JezzE]

Is it possible to publish the scores of the top 200?

This from Rob Smith...

There are three reasons why we do not publish the scores in the various categories. The first is that for one person, wonderful means 7 out of 10, for another it means 9 out of 10. As part of the moderation process, and because we correspond regularly with our panellists and get to know them, we iron out those personal preferences to apply consistency across the board. Secondly, we very much look at the wording of the reports and the underlying messages behind them. Finally, although the reports from the reader panel and staff are at the heart of the process, we have other contacts throughout golf and their input embellishes the reviews. As such, the individual scores are just a part of the assessment.

Since you started compiling the top 100 what are the biggest changes/trends you have seen at courses?

In response to your second query, I would say there has been a strong trend in recent years among courses either on our list, or looking to get onto ours or other lists, towards investing heavily in their courses after long periods of relative inactivity on that front in many quarters.

There has been an awful lot of bunker work done in recent years at courses such as Parkstone, Delamere Forest (a contender course), Aberdovey and others that has resulted in courses that not only look better, but also play better. I had the privilege of walking round Delamere as the work was being carried out, with aerial photos showing just how much the bunkering had changed over the years, and not for the better.

Many heathland courses are also looking to strip things out to take them back closer to their heathland roots too, with those designed by some of most famous architects (Colt and MacKenzie) even looking to reinstate original features that have been lost over the years.