DATE change >> Top 100 forum Q&A - Thursday December 8 12-1pm

[JezzE]

Ladybank is highly regarded but it's fallen 2 places and could be out the top 100 next time. What got it marked down this time especially as 4 of the 6 new entrants have all jumped ahead of it?

Interesting ref Ladybank. I've played it two or three times now, and lovely course though it is, I've always felt its position has been more or less right, and with others making significant progress around it in the rankings, there is always a degree of vulnerability when you're in the 90s.

One of the things we do as part of the process is to monitor what other rankings are doing - not to slavishly follow, but just to keep abreast of things. The Top 100 courses website is obviously one thing we look at regularly, and they certainly have Ladybank much lower than us - considerably lower, in fact. Their 100th-place course in the UK & Ireland is Brora, which is 29th in their Scotland only rankings. Ladybank is then 42nd in those Scottish rankings, so they are effectively saying there are another 12 Scottish courses alone that are better than Ladybank.

Now I'm not saying they're right and we're wrong, or we're right and you're wrong, but it seems that we do already rate Ladybank more highly than other 'rival' rankings

 

[LCW]

Hi Guys,

Great job on the list.

Is there an instance of a course you personally love and wanted to be higher in the rankings but wasn't rated as well by fellow panelists and you had to concede to the majority? Or Vica versa any course you had an opinion to move down?

What course on the list would you pick if it was the only golf course you were allowed to play for the rest of time, regardless of price location etc.

 

[stokie_93]

Hi Guys,

Out of the courses reviewed is there anything unique about any of the courses on the list that make it stand out from other courses?

(ie. The Mere in cheshire has a driving range where you hit in to water)

 

[Rob Smith GM]

Hi all,

I'm not sure if you can name them, but have any courses invested heavily in their course to either improve, or return it to the original aesthetics and moved down in the rankings, as a result?

Hi there,
The cost and disruption of any significant upgrade is massive, so clubs are rightly very wary about such exercises. If they go ahead, they tend to do it properly, Gleneagles Kings (Braid) and Tandridge (Colt) are two recent examples. Occasionally, things can be more difficult and before Wentworth West became members/guests only, the constant tinkerings had seen it move down a little.
Cheers,
Rob

 

[Bazz]

Were there any courses which divided opinion across the group? Not sure it's possible to agree on all of them or did the points system sort this out?

 

[Deleted member 17920]

As there is obviously a massive love for links (rightly so), do the panellists split the visits equally to parkland, heathland and links etc?

 

[Rob Smith GM]

Hi Guys,

Out of the courses reviewed is there anything unique about any of the courses on the list that make it stand out from other courses?

(ie. The Mere in cheshire has a driving range where you hit in to water)

Many of the courses have unique features, but these are not really included in the criteria. If they are related, like the amazing promontory setting of Old Head or the former railway sheds on the Old Course, then they will be included in the overall assessment.
Thanks,
Rob

 

[Rob Smith GM]

As there is obviously a massive love for links (rightly so), do the panellists split the visits equally to parkland, heathland and links etc?

We have a contender list that comprises the current Top 100 and next 40 or so courses that we feel stand the best chance of breaking into the Top 100. The panellists visit all of these, so because this list contains more links, we effectively visit more such courses. However, away from the rankings, we play a huge number of other courses and are always on the lookout for courses that could make it into the Next 100.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Would the 3 of you be prepared to reveal your personal favourite UK course?

 

[MikeH]

Hi Guys,

Great job on the list.

Is there an instance of a course you personally love and wanted to be higher in the rankings but wasn't rated as well by fellow panelists and you had to concede to the majority? Or Vica versa any course you had an opinion to move down?

What course on the list would you pick if it was the only golf course you were allowed to play for the rest of time, regardless of price location etc.

great question!
I'd probably love Royal North Devon and Royal West Norfolk (Brancaster) to be higher but the reason I love them - their rugged, natural, un-manicured, old skool feel - means they don't score well on the conditioning and facilities

There is nowhere I dont like in the list - I have only played 76 or them (lost 6 from my tally with the exclusion of clubs you cant pay a green fee at as had played them all) so cant really comment with authority on the 34 I havent played

one course for the rest of time… that's a tough one. Royal North Devon, Brancaster, Dornoch, Porthcawl all spring to mind But if I had one final round it would probably be Sunningdale. An depending on whether I was playing well or not. I'd play the New (if playing well) or Old if not

 

[Rob Smith GM]

Were there any courses which divided opinion across the group? Not sure it's possible to agree on all of them or did the points system sort this out?

Hi there,
This is bound to happen but the process (words and points) is a democratic and balanced one, and a fair result is always aimed for. A recent example is the promotion of Tandridge which was right on the borderline. As a member, quite rightly my views were ignored. Jezz thought it was just outside, and Mike thought it was just inside. As you will understand, the Editor is always right !!
Cheers,
Rob

 

[MikeH]

Would the 3 of you be prepared to reveal your personal favourite UK course?

as per my reply on if I could only play one course… my favourite is Sunningdale. Dornoch a close second

 

[JezzE]

Do you consider how a course plays from all of its tees or just the ones you use when you visit?

For example, some courses are a shadow of themselves from the so-called "ladies tees" due, I think, to a lack of imagination in the design. Others seem to manage to provide a suitable, playable experience for shorter hitters without drastically altering the character of too many holes.

Moreover, only a few (although it's becoming more common I think) seem to be rated with women's par and SSS from further back tees. I'd love to see such good practice recognised.

I've obviously read all your comments in the other thread, and I know Mike has explained the position with regard to the make-up of the current panel. As you know, no women have thus far applied to be part of the process despite any call-outs for assessors being open to all.

With regard to the tees, we would always encourage our assessors to play from the tees most suitable to their ability, as there is clearly little merit in playing a course from 7,200 yards unless you're hitting it tour pro distances. But one thing Rob and I would certainly do - and many other assessors too - is to venture back and take a look from any back tee that might significantly affect the playing or strategy of a hole so we have an understanding of the challenge that hole poses to better players.

Your posts here and on the other thread have made us think that we should also be taking into account the position of forward tees a little more too, because, as you say, sometimes the positioning of the ladies' tees will have a major bearing on how the hole plays for ladies.

With regard to alternative ladies' tees for better players like yourself, you are of course right and should have the option to challenge yourself more suitably when visiting other courses. I would hope that most would have no problem with you playing off one of the sets of men's tees, but beyond that, I think that we all at the magazine would very much be in favour of tees being reclassified according to ability and hitting distances than gender differences going forwards.

Maybe you might want to consider becoming a panellist for the next rankings in a couple of years' time if you think you might have the time to play a reasonable number of contender courses over an 18-month spell?

 

[Val]

Thanks for taking the time fellas.

2 courses in the north west both in the top 100 and not many in the rankings split them but can I ask your personal thoughts on the Formby v Hillside debate please.

I'm aware Hillside shows higher but do you all agree?

 

[stevek1969]

Like Val I would be interested to know which of the next 100 were closest to entering the top 100.

Many clubs have been investing heavily in their courses and it appears to have paid off, in particular Parkstone/Ferndown/Broadstone & Woking/Tandridge, how much higher can these clubs go. Presumably this is an example to others.

Are heathland courses closing the gap on links? Many fallers in the top 100 are links.

I am surprised to see The Grove improving its position, could this be due to the course being in better condition in the build up to the British Masters?

Also Enniscrone is surely a better course than Portmarnock links, whilst Co. Sligo (how the 17th wasn't judged to be one of the hardest holes I don't know) is surely better than Mount Juliet.

The 17th at Sligo is a brute a straight tee shot need then a straight left dog leg up the hill and into the wind, cracking hole. Ladybank in my eyes vastly overrated Ive played it numerous time and don't see what all the fuss is about it.

A list like this always brings discussions either good or bad but it get guys thinking about where the can play next season.

 

[Junior]

Do any of you have a favourite golf hole amongst the list ?????

 

[JezzE]

Would the 3 of you be prepared to reveal your personal favourite UK course?

There are so many, but if you put all the assessment criteria aside and based this purely on somewhere you'd happily play any day, then I've been a massive fan of Doonbeg since I first played it over a decade ago. I'm not among those to have yet sampled it since its reworking, but hope to do so next year

 

[Rob Smith GM]

Hi Guys,

Great job on the list.

Is there an instance of a course you personally love and wanted to be higher in the rankings but wasn't rated as well by fellow panelists and you had to concede to the majority? Or Vica versa any course you had an opinion to move down?

What course on the list would you pick if it was the only golf course you were allowed to play for the rest of time, regardless of price location etc.

Hi,

I have been banging the Enniscrone drum since I first visited a while ago to no avail until more recently there have been come very supportive comments from panellists. This does happen, but as we say, it is a democratic process.

I would be happy to play my own course forever (this is not a lie !), but both courses at Sunningdale are sublime !
All the Best,
Rob

 

[MikeH]

Thanks for taking the time fellas.

2 courses in the north west both in the top 100 and not many in the rankings split them but can I ask your personal thoughts on the Formby v Hillside debate please.

I'm aware Hillside shows higher but do you all agree?

Personally Hillside and Formby are very close indeed. I'd just go Hillside as its more dramatic (especially back 9) and for me Formby has a relatively weak closing 3. I do like Formby's variety though!

For me, both better than S&A which while a great course lacks the variety of holes and changes in elevation that boast Hillside and Formby boast.

 

[FairwayDodger]

I've obviously read all your comments in the other thread, and I know Mike has explained the position with regard to the make-up of the current panel. As you know, no women have thus far applied to be part of the process despite any call-outs for assessors being open to all.

With regard to the tees, we would always encourage our assessors to play from the tees most suitable to their ability, as there is clearly little merit in playing a course from 7,200 yards unless you're hitting it tour pro distances. But one thing Rob and I would certainly do - and many other assessors too - is to venture back and take a look from any back tee that might significantly affect the playing or strategy of a hole so we have an understanding of the challenge that hole poses to better players.

Your posts here and on the other thread have made us think that we should also be taking into account the position of forward tees a little more too, because, as you say, sometimes the positioning of the ladies' tees will have a major bearing on how the hole plays for ladies.

With regard to alternative ladies' tees for better players like yourself, you are of course right and should have the option to challenge yourself more suitably when visiting other courses. I would hope that most would have no problem with you playing off one of the sets of men's tees, but beyond that, I think that we all at the magazine would very much be in favour of tees being reclassified according to ability and hitting distances than gender differences going forwards.

Maybe you might want to consider becoming a panellist for the next rankings in a couple of years' time if you think you might have the time to play a reasonable number of contender courses over an 18-month spell?

Thanks Jezz, good to hear!

Incidentally, I have no qualms about the composition of the panel as I'm sure you are all capable of assessing a course for different types and gender of player. The other thread did get me thinking as to whether I should try out to join.... still thinking!