England Golf and General Play Scores

[Swango1980]

Or 3 strokes dependent on judgement.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.

Just imagine the scores of excellent putters. They may pick up a lot of putts from 5 to 15 feet, add 2 onto the score even though they often only need a single putt at that range.

Also, imagine the scores you need to make up when an opponent has a disaster drive, and gives you the hole before you've even had to play your second?

Or, what happens when you play very well, or they play badly, and you win 7&6. You then both walk in. I know it isn't MLS anymore, but just treated as holes not started. But I always raised an eyebrow that these could be acceptable, as the reality of the score could be miles different. In match play, you'll increase the frequency of submitted scores on some players records that are incomplete rounds, with the final hole(s) just made up.

 

[D-S]

Realistically, the likelihood of 6 feet from the hole meaning anything other than adding 2 strokes is extremely remote.
(Original comment editted accordingly)

It is a judgement call however and open for debate (or manipulation within the rules).

 

[nickjdavis]

I played a round last year where I retrospectively applied the MLS rules to my score based on the three "rules" and the position my ball lay in...

My actual score was....82.

Adding one stroke for when my ball was within 5ft of the hole would have given me a gross score of 79....so that was three holes where I missed a sub 5ft putt that would have effectively been what folks are calling a "gimme" under MLS

Applying the guidance for when my ball lay 5ft to 20yds away I'd have shot a 78....of the 18 holes played this resulted in giving me a better score on 5 holes and a worse score on 1 hole. (I applied 16 2's and 2 3's to my scores)

Applying the guidance for when my ball lay >20yds away I'd have shot an 83....this resulted in a better score than was actually achieved on 2 holes and a worse score on 3 holes. (I applied 14 3's and 4 4's to my score)

 

[doublebogey7]

I guess there's a philosophical point here. Should one's handicap be representative of how you play in as an individual in stroke play, or as a member of a team, or in matchplay? I suppose my stance on this might be influenced by how it's been for years. I still have misgivings about writing down MLS, though. It just feels a bit fishy.

Is a singles matchplay score including gimmes acceptable for handicapping? (If not, why not?)

Not in England, but they should be in my view.

 

[IanM]

Is a singles matchplay score including gimmes acceptable for handicapping? (If not, why not?)

Because

1) in matchplay you are trying to score fewer than your opponent, rather than the best you can. Eg they belt a ball OB, you might lay up and be conservative.

2) Fundamentally, if the hole is conceeded, how many would you really have taken? No one really knows unless it's a tap in. That assumes tap ins are all holed.

3) The "it only makes a negligible difference to you handicap" assumes it only happens a couple of times on the round. What if it didn't?

Handicapping on holes not played fully (or even at all these days) seems daft. Where does it stop?

@nickjdavis example above is spot on. Shot 82, but it might have been 78. What next, go fishing instead and post the score you think you might have got?

 

[cliveb]

With MLS match play can be acceptable, and is in many jurisdictions.
Note: a 6 foot gimme would count +2 (edit: or +3, but it's unthinkable that this would ever happen) strokes for handicapping, etc.

Fortunately for me, I do not play at the rarified level where anyone is ever given a 6ft putt, so this nuance would never arise.

Because
1) in matchplay you are trying to score fewer than your opponent, rather than the best you can. Eg they belt a ball OB, you might lay up and be conservative.
2) Fundamentally, if the hole is conceeded, how many would you really have taken? No one really knows unless it's a tap in. That assumes tap ins are all holed.
... etc

I guess it was not clear that my question (as to whether matchplay scores are ok for handicapping) was a bit of poking a bear with a stick.
You make very valid points that you may very well not bother to play as well as you can in order to guarantee winning a hole.

And there are other issues surrounding the strategy. Example: in a better ball match, if your partner has already halved the hole and you're faced with a 20ft putt for a win, no way are you going to lag it. Which of course will often end up with you 3-putting when in a strokeplay event you would have played safe and 2-putted.

Again, it's down to the philosophy of what a player's handicap should represent. For as long as I've been playing the game (ok, only 20 years), it's been what you would score on a good day in individual strokeplay. If the powers that be want to change it to something else, fair enough, but a lot of us are going to take a while to be comfortable with that.

 

[IanM]

Yep. Maybe I'm old school. Different forms of golf were different forms of golf and each had it's place.

More importantly, if you didn't finish or play a hole, adding anything for handicap is inaccurate. Golf is not that formulaic.

 

[wjemather]

Fortunately for me, I do not play at the rarified level where anyone is ever given a 6ft putt, so this nuance would never arise.

Are you sure, because it's a situation that happens all the time in match play, e.g. when a player has 2 (or more) putts to win a hole or secure the match.

 

[HeftyHacker]

We had a player whose handicap went from 0.7 to +1.6 with one very good score (a proper one, nothing dodgy at all) so it is not impossible to go from no chance in a ballot to probably getting in with one score.

Exactly what happened with my FiL He went from 1.8 to +0.4 in two rounds in 2021. Both competition rounds FYI.

Was enough to get him into open qualifying.

 

[wjemather]

Yep. Maybe I'm old school. Different forms of golf were different forms of golf and each had it's place.

More importantly, if you didn't finish or play a hole, adding anything for handicap is inaccurate. Golf is not that formulaic.

Golf may not be formulaic, but handicapping is. And in a sport where a player's typical median score distribution covers more than half a dozen strokes, and actual scoring ability changes by the swing/putt, handicaps just aren't that accurate.

A mechanism that produces acceptable scores that are within that median range is probably accurate enough.

 

[IanM]

There's a wee contradiction in your reply. I wonder if you can spot it.

 

[cliveb]

Are you sure, because it's a situation that happens all the time in match play, e.g. when a player has 2 (or more) putts to win a hole or secure the match.

Well, I guess if someone has three putts from 6ft to win, the hole will be conceded, so then MLS needs to be invoked.

But I tell you what: if my opponent has two putts to win from 6ft, I'll be asking to see what happens to the first putt if you don't mind.
And I'd expect him to ask the same of me if the boot was on the other foot.

 

[D-S]

“These are the Most likely score rules:-
“If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole:
Add one additional stroke.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.”

The bold bits surely show that there is judgement involved, you have to assess or judge how difficult the position of the ball is, how tricky the green is and the ability of the player.”

Does anyone know who decides whether a ball is 5 feet or 6 feet from the hole or 19 or 21 yards away? Who judges the difficulty of the shot and ability of the player?
Is it the job of the marker or the opponent or the player themselves? Does it have to be agreed?
As this could happen up to 18 times a round in Better Ball for example, it would have to be defined wouldn’t it?

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Isn’t it interesting that in the Uk we play a lot of match play, in singles and 4 balls. Yet our handicaps are made up entirely of strokeplay rounds?

 

[wjemather]

“These are the Most likely score rules:-
“If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole:
Add one additional stroke.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.”

The bold bits surely show that there is judgement involved, you have to assess or judge how difficult the position of the ball is, how tricky the green is and the ability of the player.”

Does anyone know who decides whether a ball is 5 feet or 6 feet from the hole or 19 or 21 yards away? Who judges the difficulty of the shot and ability of the player?
Is it the job of the marker or the opponent or the player themselves? Does it have to be agreed?

Since 5ft doesn't equal 1.5m, and 20 yards is only a little over 18 metres / 20 metres is almost 22 yards, I think it's safe to say that if judgement of distance is slightly out, it doesn't matter in the slightest - surely, application of just a little common sense will suffice.

 

[D-S]

Since 5ft doesn't equal 1.5m, and 20 yards is only a little over 18 metres / 20 metres is almost 22 yards, I think it's safe to say that if judgement of distance is slightly out, it doesn't matter in the slightest - surely, application of just a little common sense will suffice.

But as it is a judgement not only of distance, which I agree in most cases will be obvious but also position (above or below the hole), lie if off the green, skill of the player are all judgement calls whether an extra shot (3 not 2, 4 not 3) shots are added - who makes this call?

 

[Bdill93]

Isn’t it interesting that in the Uk we play a lot of match play, in singles and 4 balls. Yet our handicaps are made up entirely of strokeplay rounds?

Yeah, I find it a bit weird!

Stablefords make up a large percentage too I reckon, but on the whole at my club most players hole out regardless of scoring or not (which just slows play down and isn't the guidance we're given by the club). Feels like we are compelled as a nation to put that ball in the hole no matter what format we play.

 

[wjemather]

But as it is a judgement not only of distance, which I agree in most cases will be obvious but also position (above or below the hole), lie if off the green, skill of the player are all judgement calls whether an extra shot (3 not 2, 4 not 3) shots are added - who makes this call?

From the USGA's FAQs: "...most likely score is a reasonable assessment made by you..." (i.e. the player).

 

[D-S]

From the USGA's FAQs: "...most likely score is a reasonable assessment made by you..." (i.e. the player).

Thanks - good to know.

 

[Crow]

I'm going to start using MLH for this season's competitions; Most Likely Handicap.

Depending on how well I've been playing recently, or on the value of the prizes, I'll simply allocate myself a "likely" handicap that allows me to finish with the desired nett score.