England Golf and General Play Scores

[doublebogey7]

I think CONGU might like to but are reluctant because it would be a significant cultural change and there would likely be a huge backlash - a taste of which we've already seen on these forums at the mere suggestion that it could happen.

Ye maybe, they do seem to have a lot of fights with the counties these days, so probably they don't wish to have another. one.

 

[D-S]

Might be missing something here. If 4 balls became acceptable scores then players would be required to enter scores for all holes they started, that may or may not include some scores that are MLS. So each player would submit their full 18 hole scores.

But that is not a 4 ball better ball - that is some sort of 2 man aggregate medal/Stableford competition. In a better ball you cannot insist on both players holing out on each hole, it defeats the object of the competition purpose.
If my partner puts a ball to 6” on a par three with a shot and I put it into a bunker with no shot do you then expect me to still complete the hole? If you insist on a score on every hole from both players (despite the fact that one player has picked up) then MLS comes into play and as stated this is very open to manipulation as you have to judge shot difficulty and player capability, which is open to interpretation and therefore manipulation.

 

[doublebogey7]

But that is not a 4 ball better ball - that is some sort of 2 man aggregate medal/Stableford competition. In a better ball you cannot insist on both players holing out on each hole, it defeats the object of the competition purpose.
If my partner puts a ball to 6” on a par three with a shot and I put it into a bunker with no shot do you then expect me to still complete the hole? If you insist on a score on every hole from both players (despite the fact that one player has picked up) then MLS comes into play and as stated this is very open to manipulation as you have to judge shot difficulty and player capability, which is open to interpretation and therefore manipulation.

I answered that in 58. We are just going round in circles and are not going to agree, so my final word on this. Most golfers around the world are required to use MLS and have done for a long time, why is it that the UK, as always, has to be the exception.

 

[Swango1980]

Might be missing something here. If 4 balls became acceptable scores then players would be required to enter scores for all holes they started, that may or may not include some scores that are MLS. So each player would submit their full 18 hole scores.

The comment was about handicap being easier to manipulate. That was a fair comment.

Most fourball opens I play ate best 2 scores from 4 on each hole. If a player truly wanted to manipulate their handicap, they can just stick down a blob for most, or all, of the holes in which their score wouldn't count anyway. In reality, they might have been able to score 1 or 2 points, so over a round their score could be many points less than they could have scored.

 

[wjemather]

The comment was about handicap being easier to manipulate. That was a fair comment.

Most fourball opens I play ate best 2 scores from 4 on each hole. If a player truly wanted to manipulate their handicap, they can just stick down a blob for most, or all, of the holes in which their score wouldn't count anyway. In reality, they might have been able to score 1 or 2 points, so over a round their score could be many points less than they could have scored.

The purpose of MLS is to ensure a score gets recorded for every hole, and that the score recorded is reasonable when not holing out, so this simply cannot happen (without cheating).

 

[BillyTheFish777]

The purpose of MLS is to ensure a score gets recorded for every hole, and that the score recorded is reasonable when not holing out, so this simply cannot happen (without cheating).

How do the rules of golf handle the use of MLS? Knowingly signing for a score you know to be incorrect, whether as a marker or a player, results in a DQ under 3.3. Is there a local rule in place to absolve players of this responsibility where MLS is used? There is no MLR.

It seems the Rules of Golf are being sacrificed on the high altar of the WHS.

 

[clubchamp98]

How do the rules of golf handle the use of MLS? Knowingly signing for a score you know to be incorrect, whether as a marker or a player, results in a DQ under 3.3. Is there a local rule in place to absolve players of this responsibility where MLS is used? There is no MLR.

It seems the Rules of Golf are being sacrificed on the high altar of the WHS.

MLS is just a joke.
Anything can happen on a golf course.
many times I have birdied our 18th hole but I had an 8 last Saturday.
so what’s my likely MLS it’s pathetic.

Given the rules of the game are quite strict, you can be DQ for something you don’t know you’ve done.
I find MLS unbelievable really ,it’s just a guess

 

[Swango1980]

The purpose of MLS is to ensure a score gets recorded for every hole, and that the score recorded is reasonable when not holing out, so this simply cannot happen (without cheating).

But, manipulation is cheating, is it not? I thought this is what is being discussed.

 

[Backsticks]

The purpose of MLS is to ensure a score gets recorded for every hole, and that the score recorded is reasonable when not holing out, so this simply cannot happen (without cheating).

Have never played, played with, or seen MLS in action.

But does it not have some subjectivity if used? We tend towards the optimistic. Playing partners will tend towards the generous. Not cheating, but will there not be a distortion towards lower numbers ?

 

[doublebogey7]

MLS is just a joke.
Anything can happen on a golf course.
many times I have birdied our 18th hole but I had an 8 last Saturday.
so what’s my likely MLS it’s pathetic.

Given the rules of the game are quite strict, you can be DQ for something you don’t know you’ve done.
I find MLS unbelievable really ,it’s just a guess

It is not "just a guess", the guidelines are pretty clear. On the vast majority of holes where you would need to take MLS the score will be in little doubt. So the overall effect on handicaps will be minimal but handicaps will be more accurate as many more genuine competition scores will be included in the record. Plus HC's will have sight of open scores so would be able to monitor.

 

[rulefan]

Have never played, played with, or seen MLS in action.

But does it not have some subjectivity if used? We tend towards the optimistic. Playing partners will tend towards the generous. Not cheating, but will there not be a distortion towards lower numbers ?

Probably, but they get their 'reward' when they don't play MLS (and that will be honour board and 'serious' comps) when their cap is now too low.

 

[clubchamp98]

It is not "just a guess", the guidelines are pretty clear. On the vast majority of holes where you would need to take MLS the score will be in little doubt. So the overall effect on handicaps will be minimal but handicaps will be more accurate as many more genuine competition scores will be included in the record. Plus HC's will have sight of open scores so would be able to monitor.

You can’t miss a 12” put under MLS.
I have seen loads of them missed
so it is just a guess.

 

[doublebogey7]

You can’t miss a 12” put under MLS.
I have seen loads of them missed
so it is just a guess.

You do know MLS is only used for handicaoping and not for competition scores don't you. One potentially missed 12" putt recorded as made is going to make almost no difference to a players handicap. The vast majority of scores will be recorded accurately and the accuracy of handicaps will improve. Handicaooing has never been an exact science.

 

[wjemather]

How do the rules of golf handle the use of MLS? Knowingly signing for a score you know to be incorrect, whether as a marker or a player, results in a DQ under 3.3. Is there a local rule in place to absolve players of this responsibility where MLS is used? There is no MLR.

It seems the Rules of Golf are being sacrificed on the high altar of the WHS.

MLS is only applicable in formats where holing out is not required, i.e. better-ball and matchplay.

 

[wjemather]

Have never played, played with, or seen MLS in action.

But does it not have some subjectivity if used? We tend towards the optimistic. Playing partners will tend towards the generous. Not cheating, but will there not be a distortion towards lower numbers ?

Subjectivity involved is minimal and, as doublebogey7 hinted at in #70, almost all application of MLS is on the green, where there really isn't any option as to the number of strokes to add.

 

[D-S]

Subjectivity involved is minimal and, as doublebogey7 hinted at in #70, almost all application of MLS is on the green, where there really isn't any option as to the number of strokes to add.

Sorry but I don’t agree.

These are the Most likely score rules:-
“If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole:
Add one additional stroke.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.”

The bold bits surely show that there is judgement involved, you have to assess or judge how difficult the position of the ball is, how tricky the green is and the ability of the player.
There really is an option as to how many strokes to add and in both of these cases above the ball can certainly be on the green.
Oh and by the way unless your going to take a tape measure with you you’re also going to have to judge the distance from the ball to the hole.

 

[Backsticks]

Sorty but I don’t agree.

These are the Most likely score rules:-
“If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole:
Add one additional stroke.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.”

The bold bits surely show that there is judgement involved, you have to assess or judge how difficult the position of the ball is, how tricky the green is and the ability of the player.
There really is an option as to how many strokes to add and in both of these cases above the ball can certainly be on the green.

I'd love to see the stats on how many 3s or 4s are allocated in each of those circumstances. Or maybe there arent needed. We all know its zero.

 

[D-S]

I'd love to see the stats on how many 3s or 4s are allocated in each of those circumstances. Or maybe there arent needed. We all know its zero.

Players/partners will tend to opt for what suits them best, in some cases alwys high some cases always low.
When I have played in the US players seem to just say ”put me down for a x” which seems to have no bearing on anything. Of course there isn’t checking if the ball is 18 or 22 yards away and weighing up green speeds, ball position and abilities. So between 2 or 4 shots are added to suit their own ends and pretty often arbitrary numbers.

 

[wjemather]

Sorty but I don’t agree.

These are the Most likely score rules:-
“If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole:
Add one additional stroke.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.”

The bold bits surely show that there is judgement involved, you have to assess or judge how difficult the position of the ball is, how tricky the green is and the ability of the player.
There really is an option as to how many strokes to add and in both of these cases above the ball can certainly be on the green.
Oh and by the way unless your going to take a tape measure with you you’re also going to have to judge the distance from the ball to the hole.

Proportion of MLS applications declines exponentially as you move away from the hole; and the vast majority of use (particularly in match play) is from within 5 feet, where there is absolutely no judgement to be made.

 

[doublebogey7]

I'd love to see the stats on how many 3s or 4s are allocated in each of those circumstances. Or maybe there arent needed. We all know its zero.

You are right of course, but you can count the number of times on one finger that such a score might be recorded with MLS in a players year.