England Golf and General Play Scores

cliveb

Head Pro
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
2,504
Visit site
Proportion of MLS applications declines exponentially as you move away from the hole; and the vast majority of use (particularly in match play) is from within 5 feet, where there is absolutely no judgement to be made.
Indeed, within 5 feet there is no judgement to be made - it's a gimme.
Who decided on that? Donald Trump?
My index is currently 15.2. I don't regard myself as a particularly bad putter. But nobody ever gives me a 5 footer, and I probably only expect to make about 50% of them.
 

doublebogey7

Head Pro
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,874
Location
Leicester
Visit site
Indeed, within 5 feet there is no judgement to be made - it's a gimme.
Who decided on that? Donald Trump?
My index is currently 15.2. I don't regard myself as a particularly bad putter. But nobody ever gives me a 5 footer, and I probably only expect to make about 50% of them.
But how many times do you take two putts from 6 foot. The idea with the guidance is that one will balance the other. Handicaps are not an exact science, but some in here appear to think they are. MLS a very unlikely to have a significant effect on a players handicap, but having a higher percentage of competition scores on your record will.
 
Last edited:

wjemather

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
Messages
3,352
Location
Bristol
Visit site
Indeed, within 5 feet there is no judgement to be made - it's a gimme.
Who decided on that? Donald Trump?
My index is currently 15.2. I don't regard myself as a particularly bad putter. But nobody ever gives me a 5 footer, and I probably only expect to make about 50% of them.
This mechanism is called "Most Likely Score" - the name is fairly self-explanatory, and clearly it should not be considered equivalent to a gimme (surely that would be called something like "Extremely Probable Score"?).
 

Imurg

The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
37,011
Location
Aylesbury Bucks
Visit site
Call it whatever you like....
If my ball is 5 feet away and my partner wins the hole I can pick mine up for the cost of a shot.
That's a gimmee........
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
11,487
Location
Lincolnshire
Visit site
MLS is unacceptable for competitions, because the accuracy of the score is important.

MLS is deemed OK for handicap records (in some jurisdictions at least), as the accuracy of the score isn't as important.

I think that sums up the handicap system :)
 

doublebogey7

Head Pro
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,874
Location
Leicester
Visit site
MLS is unacceptable for competitions, because the accuracy of the score is important.

MLS is deemed OK for handicap records (in some jurisdictions at least), as the accuracy of the score isn't as important.

I think that sums up the handicap system :)
Simply because one whole shot can make the difference winning and losing in competition. But will make less than 0.1 of a difference to someone's handicap on average.
 

cliveb

Head Pro
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
2,504
Visit site
Simply because one whole shot can make the difference winning and losing in competition. But will make less than 0.1 of a difference to someone's handicap on average.
And yet for a round to be acceptable for handicapping, it must be played according to the rules of golf (except for needing to hole out, of course 😉). So if I'm 100 yards from the green and accidentally move my ball by 2mm - which would make absolutely no difference to my score - there's a shot penalty. But no problem assuming a 5ft putt is holed. Where's the consistency?

Strikes me that the WHS authorities seem hell bent on getting people to put in as many scores as possible, even for rounds where they are playing in a completely different mindset to singles stroke play.
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
11,487
Location
Lincolnshire
Visit site
Simply because one whole shot can make the difference winning and losing in competition. But will make less than 0.1 of a difference to someone's handicap on average.
Making less than 0.1 of a difference is a huge assumption on your part. That might be the case for some people, if they don't use MLS often, they get it about right and so maybe only one score in their top 8 is a shot different than it would have been had they holed out.

However, what about people who use MLS frequently? Guys who may play in quite a few fourball comps, and may not need to hole out for maybe 6-9 holes a round. Or even 2-3 holes a round. They could have a lot of MLS holes on most of their scores. The guidelines say (reading on Google) they should add 2-3 shots every time they are 5 feet to 20 yards away. If they generally play until they are 5feet to 15 feet from hole before picking up, and then add 2 shots (or God forbid 3 shots) to score, that would just be ridiculous. A distance that is basically not 3 putt territory, and could well be a distance many 1 putts could be achieved. Their scores could be several shots worse than it would have been if they holed out.

On flip side, players who pick up before they even get to green may he able to put a score down that flatters them. They may be horrible pitchers and chippers, but just add 3-4 shots.
 

doublebogey7

Head Pro
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,874
Location
Leicester
Visit site
Making less than 0.1 of a difference is a huge assumption on your part. That might be the case for some people, if they don't use MLS often, they get it about right and so maybe only one score in their top 8 is a shot different than it would have been had they holed out.

However, what about people who use MLS frequently? Guys who may play in quite a few fourball comps, and may not need to hole out for maybe 6-9 holes a round. Or even 2-3 holes a round. They could have a lot of MLS holes on most of their scores. The guidelines say (reading on Google) they should add 2-3 shots every time they are 5 feet to 20 yards away. If they generally play until they are 5feet to 15 feet from hole before picking up, and then add 2 shots (or God forbid 3 shots) to score, that would just be ridiculous. A distance that is basically not 3 putt territory, and could well be a distance many 1 putts could be achieved. Their scores could be several shots worse than it would have been if they holed out.

On flip side, players who pick up before they even get to green may he able to put a score down that flatters them. They may be horrible pitchers and chippers, but just add 3-4 shots.
I was answering your concern about the difference between competition and ha ndicaps on the basis of one single MLS so no huge assumptions at all.

Yes there will be potentially a greater effect for those that MLS many more times, but these are just the players who need to have their handicaps included in their handicap records as currently their handicaps simply cannot be reflecting their current play, that of course could be in either direction.

As is usual with these types of debatses we now get the extremes, the number of times in a round where you will be assessing MLS from further than 15 feet without incurring a net double bogey will be minimal. Next time you play an AM AM or 4 ball try it.

Anyway I am certyain we are not going to agree on this, so will stop the circles here.
 

doublebogey7

Head Pro
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,874
Location
Leicester
Visit site
And yet for a round to be acceptable for handicapping, it must be played according to the rules of golf (except for needing to hole out, of course 😉). So if I'm 100 yards from the green and accidentally move my ball by 2mm - which would make absolutely no difference to my score - there's a shot penalty. But no problem assuming a 5ft putt is holed. Where's the consistency?

Strikes me that the WHS authorities seem hell bent on getting people to put in as many scores as possible, even for rounds where they are playing in a completely different mindset to singles stroke play.

Yes, because that simply makes handicaps reflect players current ability and we currently use our HI derived from singles play in such competetions, seems daft to me then that we don't include those scores in opur handicap record.
 

cliveb

Head Pro
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
2,504
Visit site
Yes, because that simply makes handicaps reflect players current ability and we currently use our HI derived from singles play in such competetions, seems daft to me then that we don't include those scores in opur handicap record.
I guess there's a philosophical point here. Should one's handicap be representative of how you play in as an individual in stroke play, or as a member of a team, or in matchplay? I suppose my stance on this might be influenced by how it's been for years. I still have misgivings about writing down MLS, though. It just feels a bit fishy.

Is a singles matchplay score including gimmes acceptable for handicapping? (If not, why not?)
 

D-S

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2020
Messages
3,299
Location
Bristol
Visit site
I guess there's a philosophical point here. Should one's handicap be representative of how you play in as an individual in stroke play, or as a member of a team, or in matchplay? I suppose my stance on this might be influenced by how it's been for years. I still have misgivings about writing down MLS, though. It just feels a bit fishy.

Is a singles matchplay score including gimmes acceptable for handicapping? (If not, why not?)
No it isn’t in CONGU and the proposed trial in Ireland never happened, so I presume it won’t be any time soon. From what I heard at a relatively high level seminar there is a lot of distrust of MLS from senior EG officials.
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
11,487
Location
Lincolnshire
Visit site
I guess there's a philosophical point here. Should one's handicap be representative of how you play in as an individual in stroke play, or as a member of a team, or in matchplay? I suppose my stance on this might be influenced by how it's been for years. I still have misgivings about writing down MLS, though. It just feels a bit fishy.

Is a singles matchplay score including gimmes acceptable for handicapping? (If not, why not?)
It is a good question. When I play in team events, if I know that my partner(s) are going to score on a hole, my mindset completely changes. For example, even if finishing out, if I know my putt is not important I'll just half heartedly swipe at ball. No need to waste time marking it, lining up and composing myself. Might just be a one handed back hand putt. I miss many. Will that mindset change if scores going for handicap for many golfers? Probably not.

If, earlier in hole before you get to green, it is apparent your score won't count, again I wouldn't be entirely focused. Maybe I'll pick up if I think it saves a good bit of time, or just rush through shots.

When playing in team events where we have played and scored well, I'll often go through scores individually to see how we all get on. There are usually at least 4 to 5 holes for each player I need to guess a score as they didn't finish. But, even if I'm generous in what I give them, often players are not individually scoring well, the scores are just well dove tailed. And I always suspect 1 or 2 of us would have scored a lot better had they needed to hole out every time, as if there was an individual prize as well.
 

wjemather

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
Messages
3,352
Location
Bristol
Visit site
I guess there's a philosophical point here. Should one's handicap be representative of how you play in as an individual in stroke play, or as a member of a team, or in matchplay? I suppose my stance on this might be influenced by how it's been for years. I still have misgivings about writing down MLS, though. It just feels a bit fishy.

Is a singles matchplay score including gimmes acceptable for handicapping? (If not, why not?)
With MLS match play can be acceptable, and is in many jurisdictions.
Note: a 6 foot gimme would count +2 (edit: or +3, but it's unthinkable that this would ever happen) strokes for handicapping, etc.
 
Last edited:

D-S

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2020
Messages
3,299
Location
Bristol
Visit site
Note: a 6 foot gimme would count +2 strokes for handicapping, etc.
Or 3 strokes dependent on judgement.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
 

wjemather

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
Messages
3,352
Location
Bristol
Visit site
Or 3 strokes dependent on judgement.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:
Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
Realistically, the likelihood of 6 feet from the hole meaning anything other than adding 2 strokes is extremely remote.
(Original comment editted accordingly)
 
Last edited:
Top