England Golf and General Play Scores

[Deleted member 17920]

The following policy will be piloted at England Golf Championship events (handicap competitions excluded) in 2023.

The policy will apply to the following Championships, where over-subscribed:
English Men’s Amateur Championship
English Women’s Amateur Championship
Logan Trophy
English Women’s Stroke Play Championship
English Senior Women’s Amateur
English U25 Championship
English Senior Women’s Stroke Play
English Senior Men’s Amateur
English Senior Men’s Stroke Play
Carris Trophy
English Girls U18 Championship
English U18 Championship
McGregor Trophy
English Girls U16/14 Championship
Reid Trophy

Sorry.

I was just mentioning the handicap events that EG run as I thought SILH didn’t think they did any as he thought they just ran scratch events.
I know the handicap events don’t have any issues ballot wise.

 

[Swango1980]

Sounds to me like Devon are just taking it one step further. The size of the egos around scratch team golf is staggering, so its probably driven by the players not wanting to lose their spot in the team, or county event ballot, to someone they think is a lesser player.

I doubt itll ever actually be applied...

Potentially, and Devon pinning the "responsibility" onto England Golf. So, if anyone kicks off, Devon can just say "nothing to do with us, England Golf guidelines". Mind you, if someone was to properly challenge them, they will find out that, as written in the OP, they do not represent England Golf guidelines at all.

I'd feel pretty annoyed if I was refused entry into an event if I had 5 GP rounds in my last 20. Especially if none of them were in my best 8, or certainly they were really not much different to by competition scores.

 

[D-S]

Potentially, and Devon pinning the "responsibility" onto England Golf. So, if anyone kicks off, Devon can just say "nothing to do with us, England Golf guidelines". Mind you, if someone was to properly challenge them, they will find out that, as written in the OP, they do not represent England Golf guidelines at all.

I'd feel pretty annoyed if I was refused entry into an event if I had 5 GP rounds in my last 20. Especially if none of them were in my best 8, or certainly they were really not much different to by competition scores.

Surely the only reason to refuse entry is due to a marked discrepancy between GP and Competition scores. This may well be 2 lower for elite events but perhaps 5 or 6 higher for club events.

 

[cliveb]

Could you please tell us what Devon Golf intend to do about it within the County - thanks.

When I get home I will post the entirety of their notice.
Off the top of my head, my impression was that they plan to look at the stats during this year and take a view after that.

 

[Swango1980]

Surely the only reason to refuse entry is due to a marked discrepancy between GP and Competition scores. This may well be 2 lower for elite events but perhaps 5 or 6 higher for club events.

Having read the England Golf Guidance, then having that 2.0+ shot discrepancy does appear to be the point at which entry will be refused. However, the quote in the OP said :"No more than 4 General Play scores in the last 20 rounds will be acceptable for inclusion in their tournaments."

Not sure if anything follows this sentence, but it is written in such a way that it doesn't appear to leave much wiggle room in caveating it, to say entry is acceptable if the difference is less than 2.0.

 

[rulefan]

There seems to be discrepancy between the objectives of EG and Devon County. The former are aiming at players ostensibly having artificially low handicaps and the latter (I think) aiming at players having artificially high handicaps.

 

[wjemather]

Having read the England Golf Guidance, then having that 2.0+ shot discrepancy does appear to be the point at which entry will be refused. However, the quote in the OP said :"No more than 4 General Play scores in the last 20 rounds will be acceptable for inclusion in their tournaments."

Not sure if anything follows this sentence, but it is written in such a way that it doesn't appear to leave much wiggle room in caveating it, to say entry is acceptable if the difference is less than 2.0.

Sorry, but you have referred to this as "England Golf Guidance" on several occasions, and that isn't what this is.
It is a policy that has been introduced by EG in their elite competitions only (on a pilot basis this year); it is not guidance intended for others to follow (blindly, not understanding it's intent).

 

[D-S]

There seems to be discrepancy between the objectives of EG and Devon County. The former are aiming at players ostensibly having artificially low handicaps and the latter (I think) aiming at players having artificially high handicaps.

I don’t necessarily think this may be true, perhaps Devon are looking at just their own elite competitions or maybe just the County Championship - I can’t imagine many counties having multiple events where there are handicap ballots.
It will be very interesting if they introduce something re GP scores in relation to handicap golf.

 

[Swango1980]

Sorry, but you have referred to this as "England Golf Guidance" on several occasions, and that isn't what this is.
It is a policy that has been introduced by EG in their elite competitions only (on a pilot basis this year); it is not guidance intended for others to follow (blindly, not understanding it's intent).

Apologies that the word "Guidance" upsets you. I was simply using the term loosely to highlight this has come from England Golf. I could have used Policy, Conditions, Guidelines, Criteria, etc. However, at no point did I suggest that this policy was applicable for every golf tournament. The point had already by others, and me, that this was not for all. I didn't think I needed to include this caveat in every single post i mentioned afterwards, when referencing England Golf.

You might have missed Point 12, where I said "It could mislead players into not submitting GP rounds, where in actual fact the guidance is really aimed at elite amateurs who submit much better GP scores that they do in competition"

 

[rulefan]

Apologies that the word "Guidance" upsets you. I was simply using the term loosely to highlight this has come from England Golf. I could have used Policy, Conditions, Guidelines, Criteria, etc. However, at no point did I suggest that this policy was applicable for every golf tournament. The point had already by others, and me, that this was not for all. I didn't think I needed to include this caveat in every single post i mentioned afterwards, when referencing England Golf.

You might have missed Point 12, where I said "It could mislead players into not submitting GP rounds, where in actual fact the guidance is really aimed at elite amateurs who submit much better GP scores that they do in competition"

It is simply information sent to counties so that they may tell their (elite) players that the entry acceptance rules have changed. No more nor less

 

[Swango1980]

It is simply information sent to counties so that they may tell their (elite) players that the entry acceptance rules have change. No more nor less

Thanks for giving me another word I could have used. Best use a thesaurus next time before I use a word on a point in which I didn't think was that critical contextually, particularly given what I had said previously on the thread

 

[cliveb]

OK, as promised, here is the full text of the notice we got from Devon Golf:

Competition entries and Handicap counting rounds.

All clubs and golfers will be aware that England Golf are instituting a maximum number of acceptable General Play scores on the handicap records of entrants to their events from this season onwards. No more than 4 General Play scores in the last 20 rounds will be acceptable for inclusion in their tournaments.

Before determining how DevonGolf will frame our regulation on this matter, we shall use the 2023 playing season as a means to conduct analysis of the handicap records of those participating both in our stroke play and in our inter-club match play competitions. From that analysis we will have a clear picture of whether participants are testing their handicaps under competitive conditions.

Once the Competition Committee has evidence, we will frame any appropriate change to the Terms and Conditions of our events for the 2024 season and communicate this out to the Clubs.

I would be grateful if all Clubs would communicate this to their Handicap Committees, Club Captains and to all those engaged in team selection of any kind for DevonGolf inter-club events. Please also communicate this season of analysis to your players too.

I don't see any mention of "elite events" in this notice, and I know for certain that there are some inter-club matchplay events which are most certainly not elite. (I qualify to play in one of them myself!)

 

[Swango1980]

OK, as promised, here is the full text of the notice we got from Devon Golf:

Competition entries and Handicap counting rounds.

All clubs and golfers will be aware that England Golf are instituting a maximum number of acceptable General Play scores on the handicap records of entrants to their events from this season onwards. No more than 4 General Play scores in the last 20 rounds will be acceptable for inclusion in their tournaments.

Before determining how DevonGolf will frame our regulation on this matter, we shall use the 2023 playing season as a means to conduct analysis of the handicap records of those participating both in our stroke play and in our inter-club match play competitions. From that analysis we will have a clear picture of whether participants are testing their handicaps under competitive conditions.

Once the Competition Committee has evidence, we will frame any appropriate change to the Terms and Conditions of our events for the 2024 season and communicate this out to the Clubs.

I would be grateful if all Clubs would communicate this to their Handicap Committees, Club Captains and to all those engaged in team selection of any kind for DevonGolf inter-club events. Please also communicate this season of analysis to your players too.

I don't see any mention of "elite events" in this notice, and I know for certain that there are some inter-club matchplay events which are most certainly not elite. (I qualify to play in one of them myself!)

The first paragraph is quite misleading, and misreprents England Golf. Perhaps the County are looking to implement similar conditions after their own analysis, and simply not quite worded the first bit as well as they could.

 

[D-S]

The first paragraph is quite misleading, and misreprents England Golf. Perhaps the County are looking to implement similar conditions after their own analysis, and simply not quite worded the first bit as well as they could.

It appears that Devon have indeed misread or misinterpreted the EG announcement.
Nevertheless it will be interesting to see what their Competition Committee comes up with in due course.

 

[doublebogey7]

It's really difficult to see what Devon are attempting to do here. Firstly they are grossly misrepresenting EG as others have said. Why though would they be concerned about players representing clubs in inter club matches, or am I missing simething

 

[cliveb]

I have no idea what Devon Golf are doing - I am nothing to do with their admin.

But I have to say that (without having knowledge of England Golf's stance) I read it as an attempt to weed out people using general play scores to manufacture an unrealistically high index. So either I've misunderstood Devon Golf's intentions, or Devon Golf has misinterpreted England Golf's intentions.

 

[Backsticks]

Whats the thinking here : their general play scores are better than their competition score due to lack of competitive pressure, or, the general play scores are fake ?

 

[Swango1980]

Whats the thinking here : their general play scores are better than their competition score due to lack of competitive pressure, or, the general play scores are fake ?

In England Golf's case, for elite competitions, they suspected some entrants had artificially low indexes due to submitting significantly better general play scores. How that comes to be, I can let you hypothesise. For Devon, no idea.

 

[D-S]

Whats the thinking here : their general play scores are better than their competition score due to lack of competitive pressure, or, the general play scores are fake ?

I would assume it is the fact that it is very easy and cheap to put in any score you like in a GP score you just need one mate to collude. It is trickier (especially in drawn comps), more expensive and more public (competition scores are there for the whole club to see) to manipulate Competition scores.

 

[Backsticks]

Plenty of no draw comps, the entry fee is fundamentally a trivial amount for anyone that invested in golf, and people looking at posted results will expect someone of that level to be scoring well, so I dont see it standing out.
So if a deliberately cheated score, I dont see much issue for cheaters and their collaborators to cheat in competitions.

On the wider issue, two points.

Its certainly hypocritical, and strange, to see England Golf promoting the WHS, yet effectively question its integrity. Or more than just question, condemn it as disfunctional. Effectively, they want competition scores to count for handicaps, but are trying to have their WHS cake and eat it.

And. How does their position have any credibility in effectively saying one persons HI is not good enough for their competitions, but is OK to play club competitions, opens, etc ? i.e. we dont trust that handicap, but carry on playing as long as it doesnt effect our competitions. And they are the hc regulator!