Changes to WHS in April 2024

[AussieKB]

Does that not directly contradict the purpose of handicapping? For example, if a player only ever played 4BBB, would there handicap not ultimately become far too low for them, as it never goes up?

Why would you only ever play 4BBB, have yet to meet anyone of those, have you ?

 

[Swango1980]

Why would you only ever play 4BBB, have yet to meet anyone of those, have you ?

Indeed I have.

I know guys, especially loads who left my last club, who enter well over a dozen Open competitions a year, just to meet up. They rarely play singles golf anymore. So, if only those scores ended up going into their record, their handicap would be too low.

At any rate, I was simply taking the extreme, and extremes often exist in rare cases. However, the fact that only good scores are counting towards handicap, it directly contradicts what is required for all other formats of golf. So, I'm wondering why Oz do this?

 

[wjemather]

Indeed I have.

I know guys, especially loads who left my last club, who enter well over a dozen Open competitions a year, just to meet up. They rarely play singles golf anymore. So, if only those scores ended up going into their record, their handicap would be too low.

At any rate, I was simply taking the extreme, and extremes often exist in rare cases. However, the fact that only good scores are counting towards handicap, it directly contradicts what is required for all other formats of golf. So, I'm wondering why Oz do this?

As you might expect, it's a bit more complicated than just counting good 4BBB scores. They are only used when the pair has a nett score of 42 points or better, the player's score has counted at least 9 times, and the player's adjusted score is 36 points or better (adjusted scores are produced by giving 1.5 points (or 1 if their partner only scored 1) for each hole where their score isn't recorded).

 

[AussieKB]

I wonder how they got their handicap if they don't play single events (only joking) so by entering only 4BBB events their handicaps are not legit are they ? could be better or worse.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Why would you only ever play 4BBB, have yet to meet anyone of those, have you ?

Most Opens in England, note not Scotland or Wales, are 4BBB. It is quite simple for people to play social golf only, maybe 1 or 2 comps counting comps a year, and then play 20 4BBB Opens with a handicap that doesn't change. What you are reading into this is exactly what others read into it but there you go. It absolutely does happen.

 

[Swango1980]

I wonder how they got their handicap if they don't play single events (only joking) so by entering only 4BBB events their handicaps are not legit are they ? could be better or worse.

With WHS, once you have a handicap, you have a handicap. Technically, you may never need to enter another score again. Some Opens will require a player has submitted a certain number of scores in the last year, but in my experience this seems to be rarely the case. However, some will submit 3 or 4 social scores in the year just to be on the safe side, although they'll still play significantly more 4BBB Opens than submit singles scores

 

[Swango1980]

As you might expect, it's a bit more complicated than just counting good 4BBB scores. They are only used when the pair has a nett score of 42 points or better, the player's score has counted at least 9 times, and the player's adjusted score is 36 points or better (adjusted scores are produced by giving 1.5 points (or 1 if their partner only scored 1) for each hole where their score isn't recorded).

Cheers. Although I'm still trying to get my head around the logic of it all. Could a player not be rubbish, continue to submit poor scores 4BBB after 4BBB and then technically have a handicap that does not reflect their ability. Is the above system designed to produce equitable handicaps to all players playing 4BBB, or is it more designed to try and protect Opens from bandits, by making sure those getting good scores are accounted for?

I wonder if the UK would adopt a similar policy if and when such scores become acceptable over here

 

[wjemather]

Cheers. Although I'm still trying to get my head around the logic of it all. Could a player not be rubbish, continue to submit poor scores 4BBB after 4BBB and then technically have a handicap that does not reflect their ability. Is the above system designed to produce equitable handicaps to all players playing 4BBB, or is it more designed to try and protect Opens from bandits, by making sure those getting good scores are accounted for?

I wonder if the UK would adopt a similar policy if and when such scores become acceptable over here

What you are talking about is cheating the system and manipulating a handicap. The purpose of accepting other scores (such as 4BBB) is not to combat either of these things.

It simply makes it easier for players to meet their responsibility to 'submit acceptable scores to provide evidence of their demonstrated ability'. If someone shoots lights-out in a team event, their handicap is clearly lagging behind (probably unintentionally) and accepting such a score is likely to have an effect in reducing their handicap; if they don't appear to score anywhere near their handicap (and if they aren't counting on many holes, there isn't much evidence to go on), it doesn't necessarily mean their ability has waned.

 

[Swango1980]

What you are talking about is cheating the system and manipulating a handicap. The purpose of accepting other scores (such as 4BBB) is not to combat either of these things.

It simply makes it easier for players to meet their responsibility to 'submit acceptable scores to provide evidence of their demonstrated ability'. If someone shoots lights-out in a team event, their handicap is clearly lagging behind (probably unintentionally) and accepting such a score is likely to have an effect in reducing their handicap; if they don't appear to score anywhere near their handicap (and if they aren't counting on many holes, there isn't much evidence to go on), it doesn't necessarily mean their ability has waned.

Could you not say the same thing for a singles event?

Just another question. In Oz where 4BBB can be counted, are player scores ignored simply if their score does not count (e.g. if they get a net par but their partner gets a net birdie)?

 

[wjemather]

Could you not say the same thing for a singles event?

Just another question. In Oz where 4BBB can be counted, are player scores ignored simply if their score does not count (e.g. if they get a net par but their partner gets a net birdie)?

No. For an individual event you have all 18 hole scores. For a team event, you likely have less than 9 hole scores for someone who isn't contributing very much - they could be scoring badly, or they could simply be in the hole second for the same score as their partner on those holes and actually be scoring well.

I'm not sure exactly what your section question is, but only the player whose score counts is deemed to have recorded a score. Additionally, "Clubs are to strongly discourage players from recording the scores of both partners on a hole or holes unless a concurrent singles event is being played... Players who regularly return four-ball scorecards featuring identical net scores for both players on the same hole will not be eligible to have these rounds handicapped – clubs should consider suspending the GA Handicaps of such players".

 

[Swango1980]

No. For an individual event you have all 18 hole scores. For a team event, you likely have less than 9 hole scores for someone who isn't contributing very much - they could be scoring badly, or they could simply be in the hole second for the same score as their partner on those holes and actually be scoring well.

I'm not sure exactly what your section question is, but only the player whose score counts is deemed to have recorded a score. Additionally, "Clubs are to strongly discourage players from recording the scores of both partners on a hole or holes unless a concurrent singles event is being played... Players who regularly return four-ball scorecards featuring identical net scores for both players on the same hole will not be eligible to have these rounds handicapped – clubs should consider suspending the GA Handicaps of such players".

I'm just trying to figure out the mechanics of it.

For example, a team consists of Player A and Player B

Player A is steady scores on 14 holes and scores 32 points for the team. On the other 4 holes they would have had 9 points, but their partner came in really well on those holes, using their shots
Player B is generally bad, but with a high handicap have the potential to get a few good hole scores. They do so by contributing on 4 holes, and score 14 points. The rest of their round is littered with blobs and 1 pointers. Maybe they only get 28 or so points in total, if they'd holed out.

So, had it been singles, then Player A would get 41 points, Player B would get 28 points.

However, as it was 4BBB, would I be correct in thinking Player B's score would be ignored. Player A would get 38 points?

 

[rulefan]

In OZ 4BBB is only handicapped for people to go down, not up, so normally a small percentage of the field, less then 5%.

My understanding is that there is an option for individual clubs to accept 'good' 4BBB scores but is not a mandate from Golf Australia.

 

[rulefan]

GA - FOUR-BALL SCORES
(i) WHEN TO USE SCORE OBTAINED IN FOUR-BALL COMPETITION FOR HANDICAPPING PURPOSES
Four-ball scores (including from mixed events) SHOULD be used for handicapping an individual player but only if the following requirements are met:
▪ The pair that the relevant player played in has a net score of at least 6 better than par (ie 42 points or better in Stableford, +6 or better in Par, etc).
▪ The individual player's score appears at least 9 times on the four-ball scorecard.
▪ The adjusted score (after the method described in (ii) below has been followed to create an individual scorecard) is equal to or better than 36 points.

(ii) PROCEDURE FOR CREATING INDIVIDUAL SCORECARD FROM FOUR-BALL SCORECARD FOR HANDICAPPING PURPOSES:
▪ When a player’s score is not recorded on the four-ball card, they are given 1½ Stableford points. (Exception: When a player’s score is not recorded on the four-ball card, and their partner’s score is 1 Stableford point, the player is given 1 Stableford point.)
▪ When a player’s score counts on the four-ball card for a hole, they are given the appropriate number of Stableford points for that hole. (When both players have 0 Stableford points on a hole, they are both considered to have their score listed on the scorecard, including for the purposes of ‘being on the card 9 times or more’. For the purposes of creating an adjusted individual scorecard, each player will have 0 points listed on the individual card for this hole.)

 

[D-S]

I would be more than astonished if there was any change to acceptable formats of play and that 4BB would be included in the 2024 revision.
Just to look at the CR-Par change. this was mentioned by some Regional Handicap Advisors back in January to County Officials. Then it was mentioned in a regular Zoom County Update mid March. It was then announced at the EG AGM in April and further details given at the EG Roadshows done to the regions in May. Key figures in the EG Handicapping Authority have also mentioned it in the EG Volunteer Facebook Group advising that training will be given to Counties for dissemination to clubs in a series of workshops which will take place in all counties this winter. During all of this there has been no mention of any other change to Handicap processes, procedures or acceptable score formats.
As has been mentioned the proposed Ireland Golf trial to see if BB and matchplay scores might be a way forward never took place. The reference to this trial was removed from CONGU guidance sometime last year and this may be where some confusion has arisen.

 

[LizAig]

All I've been able to find is the link I posted in my original post. Asked at the Club and although they acknowledge that the change is happening they are being very tight lipped about it. Almost seems like they've been told to keep it to themselves for some reason.

Maybe some 'Club Officials' on this forum can shed some light on the secrecy surrounding this change????

We’ve had no info about it at our club. I only know because of this forum. It was two members new to comps committee that attended the last EG meeting and they kept no notes and have fed nothing back. We’ve now asked if they received any handouts or a copy of the presentation so we can see what was mentioned

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Anybody got any dates for information and implementation yet?

 

[D-S]

Anybody got any dates for information and implementation yet?

Nothing with any dates on it (apart from advice that April 1st is the implementation) from EG to Counties yet. We're expecting some sort of workshop (Zoom or in person) invitation prior to having to run seminars for Clubs late this year or early next. The notice, 4 weeks, given by EG before the WHS Workshops last year I would assume that it will be end September before we see anything.

 

[Genu9]

Anybody got any dates for information and implementation yet?

I think they have get approval from MI6.

 

[chrisd]

I think they have get approval from MI6.

Soon to be reduced to MI4 IF those who run golf have their way

 

[3offTheTee]

This may be me oversimplifying and if so I am sure RF or Wjemather will correct and apologies.

Out white and yellow are par 71 with a Course rating 71.1 and 69.7 respectively.

All that is needed to arrive @ Course Handicap is add 0.1 and subtract 1.3 for our Course Handicap. Then carry on as now. If that is the case members will soon get used to the change