Changes to WHS in April 2024

[Swango1980]

Why would a Handicap Index change from course to course?

That last line was a typo

 

[Voyager EMH]

What?!

Surely they've gotten used to just reading their CH from a chart/app/touchscreen/other or asking the pro shop to look it up for them. There is no ignoring the change as these things will no longer give them the old value.

Nope.
They know their HI and they let the roll-up organiser tell them what they are playing off.
The organiser will decide whether to do the subtracting of 0.9 (or not) on his spreadsheet.

You see, most people view this game of golf as a pastime and hobby. They make their decisions on what they "want" to do and what they "like" to do.
If they don't want to lose a shot by subtracting 0.9 all of a sudden then they ain't gonna do it.
They might come round to the idea in a year or two, but there's nothing compelling them to do it in 12 days time.
Some people get quite a kick from being in charge and making the decisions on "what WE are going to be doing in our group."

Last year I played in a Captain's awayday, best 2 from 4 AmAm, where 85% was ignored. That's "what was decided" by person or persons in charge.
You see, 85% means "losing two shots" to many, so they like the idea of ignoring it.
They do what they "like" not necessarily what is obvious or correct or simple or easy.

 

[Swango1980]

Nope.
They know their HI and they let the roll-up organiser tell them what they are playing off.
The organiser will decide whether to do the subtracting of 0.9 (or not) on his spreadsheet.

You see, most people view this game of golf as a pastime and hobby. They make their decisions on what they "want" to do and what they "like" to do.
If they don't want to lose a shot by subtracting 0.9 all of a sudden then they ain't gonna do it.
They might come round to the idea in a year or two, but there's nothing compelling them to do it in 12 days time.
Some people get quite a kick from being in charge and making the decisions on "what WE are going to be doing in our group."

Last year I played in a Captain's awayday, best 2 from 4 AmAm, where 85% was ignored. That's "what was decided" by person or persons in charge.
You see, 85% means "losing two shots" to many, so they like the idea of ignoring it.
They do what they "like" not necessarily what is obvious or correct or simple or easy.

I mean, you are really picking a very specific example of a group of people having an organiser with a spreadsheet. Our club have a group of people like that as well. They play every Sat and Sun when there is no comp, play for money, put all scores in an ancient book, and manually adjust handicaps every round based on their own handicapping rules.

But, such groups really have no relevance to WHS, or whatever other official handicap system is in place at the time. The guy with the book, or the spreadsheet, will simply do what they do

But, for the vast majority of golfers who use the official WHS system when going out to play, they won't have a chap with a spreadsheet telling them their handicap. They use the boards or their App. Therefore, these golfers will simply go along with the inbuilt changes, such as including CR-Par in their Course Handicap. I would be happy to bet my house that close to 0% of them will manually subtract the CR-Par element once they get their course handicap.

 

[wjemather]

Nope.
They know their HI and they let the roll-up organiser tell them what they are playing off.
The organiser will decide whether to do the subtracting of 0.9 (or not) on his spreadsheet.

You see, most people view this game of golf as a pastime and hobby. They make their decisions on what they "want" to do and what they "like" to do.
If they don't want to lose a shot by subtracting 0.9 all of a sudden then they ain't gonna do it.
They might come round to the idea in a year or two, but there's nothing compelling them to do it in 12 days time.
Some people get quite a kick from being in charge and making the decisions on "what WE are going to be doing in our group."

Last year I played in a Captain's awayday, best 2 from 4 AmAm, where 85% was ignored. That's "what was decided" by person or persons in charge.
You see, 85% means "losing two shots" to many, so they like the idea of ignoring it.
They do what they "like" not necessarily what is obvious or correct or simple or easy.

There is only one person I can think of who would even consider doing this, and I pray for everyone's sanity if that person is the organiser you speak of.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I know absolutely nobody that gets their course handicap by getting a calculator out, and multiplying their Index by Slope/113. I'm not saying these people don't exist. But, in my experience, most people look up their CH on the board or get it from the App when playing social golf. Assuming the vast majority do this, then they will automatically include the CR-Par in their course handicap. And, even if they didn't want to, if most of them don't even know about the CR-Par change coming in (from what you implied), they certainly won't be thinking of adding Par-CR back.

So, I completely disagree with your assumption that most golfers will not include CR-Par. Most golfers will include it, because they will still get their CH from a board or an App

"Most golfers" ? Did I type that? Don't think I did.

I know what golfers do in roll-ups at my club. That isn't even "most golfers" at my club.
A lack of communication and/or explanation of the forthcoming changes means that there will be a slow take-up of those changes. Old boards were still up yesterday.
Maybe there will be some discussion on Saturday 30th about whether everyone accepts "losing a shot" the following week.
It will be interesting or very uninteresting depending on one's view. But I feel that many will press for "not losing a shot" at the outset. This is based on my observations over recent years.
It will depend much on who have the loudest voices and who believes they are in charge.
Many of these golfers don't give much attention to the actual rules of handicapping, but prefer a sort of cherry-picking mishmash of old system and new system. Whatever suits them.

 

[Voyager EMH]

There is only one person I can think of who would even consider doing this, and I pray for everyone's sanity if that person is the organiser you speak of.

And who is that one person you are thinking of? I'm intrigued.
I'm merely reporting that players don't like the idea of "losing a shot" and will try to avoid that happening, if possible.
Is this a difficult concept for you to accept?

They have got used to making up their own way of calculating handicaps in social golf. You have said yourself, "They are free to play off whatever handicaps they agree to."
And that is what they do.

 

[Swango1980]

"Most golfers" ? Did I type that? Don't think I did.

I know what golfers do in roll-ups at my club. That isn't even "most golfers" at my club.
A lack of communication and/or explanation of the forthcoming changes means that there will be a slow take-up of those changes. Old boards were still up yesterday.
Maybe there will be some discussion on Saturday 30th about whether everyone accepts "losing a shot" the following week.
It will be interesting or very uninteresting depending on one's view. But I feel that many will press for "not losing a shot" at the outset. This is based on my observations over recent years.
It will depend much on who have the loudest voices and who believes they are in charge.
Many of these golfers don't give much attention to the actual rules of handicapping, but prefer a sort of cherry-picking mishmash of old system and new system. Whatever suits them.

If your Club has been poor at communicating changes to members, and if they leave out of date boards up after April, then the fault lies purely with them. I'd expect Old Boards to still be up now though, as the changes have not yet come into play. So, members still need to know what handicap they are to play off if they have a game before 1st April.

But, I don't know what world you live in if you think Golf Clubs will routinely ask members before the 1st April "who wants to lose a shot, or shall we keep up the old boards?". When WHS came in, I'm unaware of any clubs who decided to simply keep using the old system and ignore WHS, just because they felt it would be less confusing? I don't remember any clubs using a hybrid system between WHS and what came before?

I'd love to know what Club you are a member of? Because if they simply do as they please in relation to handicaps, rather than follow the official system as it is, I'd find that pretty incredible. I'd have thought the vast majority of clubs, even those with less knowledgeable volunteers with little time on their hands, will implement the updated system come April. And, for those using Apps, there will be no choice. Just imagine the confusion if Clubs decided to stick with the old methodology, and members using Apps were coming up with completely different handicaps.

And, if you are just talking about roll ups, good luck to those that decide not to use CR-Par, and they don't have anyone with a spreadsheet tracking everything. Because, question would be, how do they get their handicaps currently? Board or App? And, how do they expect to get them after?

 

[Swango1980]

And who is that one person you are thinking of? I'm intrigued.
I'm merely reporting that players don't like the idea of "losing a shot" and will try to avoid that happening, if possible.
Is this a difficult concept for you to accept?

They have got used to making up their own way of calculating handicaps in social golf. You have said yourself, "They are free to play off whatever handicaps they agree to."
And that is what they do.

What if they are at a course where they gain an extra shot or 2?

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I thought everyone wanted the lowest handicap possible. Who could be upset at losing a shot

 

[Swango1980]

I thought everyone wanted the lowest handicap possible. Who could be upset at losing a shot

True. As Voyager has pointed out before, the CR-Par applies to everyone, so theoretically everybody's handicap is moving upwards or downwards by the same amount (depending on decimals).

So, not sure why anybody would be worried they are getting a shot less at a particular course, if everyone is getting a shot less. It isn't even something that a cheating bandit should be concerned with. So, losing a shot or more at a particular course is surely only a good thing, for the ego. As I said before, my mate has an Index of 8.0 and will play off 4 at his new course, rather than 8. Playing off 4 sounds much cooler

 

[Voyager EMH]

If your Club has been poor at communicating changes to members, and if they leave out of date boards up after April, then the fault lies purely with them. I'd expect Old Boards to still be up now though, as the changes have not yet come into play. So, members still need to know what handicap they are to play off if they have a game before 1st April.

But, I don't know what world you live in if you think Golf Clubs will routinely ask members before the 1st April "who wants to lose a shot, or shall we keep up the old boards?". When WHS came in, I'm unaware of any clubs who decided to simply keep using the old system and ignore WHS, just because they felt it would be less confusing? I don't remember any clubs using a hybrid system between WHS and what came before?

I'd love to know what Club you are a member of? Because if they simply do as they please in relation to handicaps, rather than follow the official system as it is, I'd find that pretty incredible. I'd have thought the vast majority of clubs, even those with less knowledgeable volunteers with little time on their hands, will implement the updated system come April. And, for those using Apps, there will be no choice. Just imagine the confusion if Clubs decided to stick with the old methodology, and members using Apps were coming up with completely different handicaps.

And, if you are just talking about roll ups, good luck to those that decide not to use CR-Par, and they don't have anyone with a spreadsheet tracking everything. Because, question would be, how do they get their handicaps currently? Board or App? And, how do they expect to get them after?

Well, I would really like to be able to answer all those questions, but I'm not able to read the minds of all those involved or predict the future as to what my club will do with old boards.
When WHS came in, I was aware of roll-ups making up a cherry-picking mishmash of old and new systems and this has pretty much prevailed. I'm not part of any regular roll-up so I leave them to it. They seem to go with whatever they feel is simplest or most resembles the old system of just having "one" handicap to think about.
So if a player has a HI of 11.4 and "gets 13 shots" he might rail against having that cut to 12 shots all of a sudden. If a vocal majority press for ignoring the "losing a shot" then it will happen that they ignore subtracting 0.9. I can not guarantee it, but it seems likely to me.
Even in club comps, I still hear the odd moan about "losing a shot" when low handicap players "do not lose a shot".
"Losing a shot" does not make people happy. An opportunity to not "lose a shot" by ignoring CR-Par might make them happier and so take that choice.

 

[Voyager EMH]

What if they are at a course where they gain an extra shot or 2?

Oh yes, that doesn't phase them at all.
Only the "losing a shot" rankles.

 

[Alan Clifford]

True. As Voyager has pointed out before, the CR-Par applies to everyone, so theoretically everybody's handicap is moving upwards or downwards by the same amount (depending on decimals).

You've just made me realize there are decimal places involved so cr - par can give different adjustments.



I'm now wondering if cr - par could result in more than 1 shot difference.

 

[rosecott]

The tussle between EG and ISVs seems to have been resolved - at least with one ISV.

Handicapmaster have just issued a software update and stated:

"Last week we received a request from the Golf Unions to change the way data is sent to the WHS servers for handicapping Four Ball competitions from 1st April.

This change requires reporting player's equivalent Stableford Points based upon their Full Course Handicap (rather than reporting the player's gross scores) and has invalidated the programming we had previously released.

We have addressed this change in the latest software update."

 

[Swango1980]

Well, I would really like to be able to answer all those questions, but I'm not able to read the minds of all those involved or predict the future as to what my club will do with old boards.
When WHS came in, I was aware of roll-ups making up a cherry-picking mishmash of old and new systems and this has pretty much prevailed. I'm not part of any regular roll-up so I leave them to it. They seem to go with whatever they feel is simplest or most resembles the old system of just having "one" handicap to think about.
So if a player has a HI of 11.4 and "gets 13 shots" he might rail against having that cut to 12 shots all of a sudden. If a vocal majority press for ignoring the "losing a shot" then it will happen that they ignore subtracting 0.9. I can not guarantee it, but it seems likely to me.
Even in club comps, I still hear the odd moan about "losing a shot" when low handicap players "do not lose a shot".
"Losing a shot" does not make people happy. An opportunity to not "lose a shot" by ignoring CR-Par might make them happier and so take that choice.

If there is an expectation that a good few golfers will not include CR-Par, if it means they lose a shot or more, (which will mean they need to do additional calculations beyond what the Apps or boards tell them) then has the following been true:

These same golfers have refused to use the Slope at any course that is lower than what they are used to. So, if they play at a club with a Slope of 140 and have an Index of 20, then their course handicap is 25. If they play any other course with a lower slope than 140, they refuse to play off anything less than 25. Have clubs or golfers refused to apply the 95% in stroke play competitions, because they have found members will not accept playing off a lower handicap?

 

[Voyager EMH]

True. As Voyager has pointed out before, the CR-Par applies to everyone, so theoretically everybody's handicap is moving upwards or downwards by the same amount (depending on decimals).

So, not sure why anybody would be worried they are getting a shot less at a particular course, if everyone is getting a shot less. It isn't even something that a cheating bandit should be concerned with. So, losing a shot or more at a particular course is surely only a good thing, for the ego. As I said before, my mate has an Index of 8.0 and will play off 4 at his new course, rather than 8. Playing off 4 sounds much cooler

Me 4.3

Painswick yellows 1
My course yellows 4
My course whites 6
Woodhall Hotchkin blues 8

"What handicap do you play off?" from a non-golfer.
Answer, "Oh, anything from 1 to 8 depending on where I'm playing."

 

[Swango1980]

You've just made me realize there are decimal places involved so cr - par can give different adjustments.

View attachment 52461

I'm now wondering if cr - par could result in more than 1 shot difference.

Indeed. But, rounding in many areas of handicaps will always result in a flip in handicap difference, because we can only use a whole number.

Even just taking CH, one player might be off 19.5 and another off 20.4. Decimal difference is 0.9, yet the CH difference will be zero. Whereas another 2 players could be off 19.4 and 19.5. Only 0.1 difference, but a full shot difference in CH

 

[Swango1980]

Me 4.3

Painswick yellows 1
My course yellows 4
My course whites 6
Woodhall Hotchkin blues 8

"What handicap do you play off?" from a non-golfer.
Answer, "Oh, anything from 1 to 8 depending on where I'm playing."

What is wrong with that? Are you worried about non-golfers getting confused now?

Your answer makes sense. Anything between 1 and 8 implies some courses are easy, and others are very difficult. I think a non-golfer would understand that (although I doubt they'd be interested at all).

Or, you could just tell them your Index.

 

[wjemather]

Or, you could just tell them your Index.

Yes. This, and only this.

 

[Voyager EMH]

1. What is wrong with that? Are you worried about non-golfers getting confused now?

2. Your answer makes sense. Anything between 1 and 8 implies some courses are easy, and others are very difficult. I think a non-golfer would understand that (although I doubt they'd be interested at all).

3. Or, you could just tell them your Index.

1. Did you think that I had typed something that I thought was deliberately wrong?
If so, you were mistaken.
But don't worry about it.

2. Glad you agree.

3. I do.