WHS and club completions

[clubchamp98]

Sounds like some people don't want vanity handicappers in their elite level competitions but they don't think similar restrictions should be put in by clubs to stop sandbaggers.
Us low level oiks must do what were told by the great and good who introduced the idiocy that is WHS.

Just about sums it up for me.

 

[doublebogey7]

So us Oiks are wrong that people are sandbagging through GP scores because the great and good tell us so, if this was not the case restricting GP scores should help stop sandbaggers. Doesn't guarantee stopping it but it makes it more difficult..

It may help but it will also restrict those either who are either rapidly improving or diminishing at the same time and genually wish to have a handicap.that reflects their current ability which is what WHS is designed to do. If clubs have a real desire to reduce sandbagging rhen their is much in their armoury they can do, it does though mean tackling the isdue head on which in my experience clubs have no wish to do. In that regard nothing has changed.

 

[doublebogey7]

They are not similar restrictions. One is evidence based, examining differences in gp and comp score differentials; the other is an arbitrary limit on gp scores with zero evidence to support it stopping sandbaggers.

As I understand it, they are not using it to restrict entry in any case, but simply adding it to the criteria when needing to ballot entries out.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

My assumption is that it is not a points score it is a net score, so 49 it pretty low.

That would make the course a par 62

 

[Springveldt]

Don't get fooled by high points in Texas Scrambles, as the handicap allowance isn't designed to make 36 points meaning all four playing to their handicap, if your only scored 36 points in a fourball scramble you deserve to be stone last

It was a net 49, not 49 points.

I would say 49 is extremely low. 54 is usually a winning score. Receiving 13 shots seems high. 10 roughly seems more realistic from the figures quoted.They probably had it worked out with the 2 7 handicappers taking as many drives as possible and have the distance and good short game. The high cappers just needed to get their drives in. Still a tremendous score.

3 tee shots each were required and the handicap rules were 25%, 20%, 15% and 10% from low to high of playing handicap. The gross scores weren't published but a quick scan down the results I could see a team that had a +3, 5, 9 and 9 must have shot a gross 58 for a net 55 which I think was the lowest I could quickly calculate

That would make the course a par 62

Par 72, 6500 yards off the whites and the course was still a bit soft. When you have a 26 and 30 index (so 32 and 36 playing handicap) taking 6 tee shots, just how much are they actually going to contribute? To shoot a 62 gross is just nuts even for a Texas Scramble with that team make up.

 

[rulie]

Who marked their card?

 

[clubchamp98]

Who marked their card?

You mark your own card in a scramble.
So one of the four.

 

[jim8flog]

I was going to start a new thread for this but I guess my question kind of fits here:

Is it currently possible that clubs who have restrictions on the number of GP scores in the last X amount of scores can give a player a handicap based on those restrictions imposed?

The reason I ask is that I played in an Open at Silloth last week and, due to some uncertainty about whether or not I would be able to play the day prior, I had been removed from the tee sheet (as it happened we couldn't find a replacement so I put my big boy pants on and played anyway).

When I nipped into the office to have myself added back on I gave my CDH number and although my name and details came back correctly the HI wasn't one I recognised, neither current nor past.

I mentioned it to the gent helping me and he told me not to worry as because I was using a buggy without a medical cert I would be ineligible for prizes anyway so we left it there.

After thinking about it I was wondering if the handicap index it was returning was one based on competition results rather than my full list of scores.

For info the ISV being used was IntelligentGolf.

My HI at the time was 11.5 but the HI it was returning was in the high 13s (I can't remember exactly). The highest my HI has been recently - as in the last 3 years - was 13.4 in May this year.

I don't play in many singles comps and haven't for probably over a year now due to family life - most of my record now is built up GP cards submitted in evening rounds with mates. Competition golf tends to come in the form of pairs or Team opens.

If only competition scores were included then my HI would probably be more in the 13/14s which is what made me wonder if some sort of restrictions had been applied.

TLDR: can ISVs apply restrictions to calculate a comp handicap?

Are you sure you were looking at HI and not CH?

Difference in the slope rating with the away club could produce a higher CH than you are used to seeing.

 

[jim8flog]

Sounds like some people don't want vanity handicappers in their elite level competitions but they don't think similar restrictions should be put in by clubs to stop sandbaggers.
Us low level oiks must do what were told by the great and good who introduced the idiocy that is WHS.

One of the points about the first part of that is that most elite or low handicap events get too many entrants in the first instance so players get balloted out,
so someone who has a handicap lower than their ability is stopping a 'qualified' player from getting in.

 

[HeftyHacker]

Are you sure you were looking at HI and not CH?

Difference in the slope rating with the away club could produce a higher CH than you are used to seeing.

It had crossed my mind and would be more in line but I've never seen course handicap expressed as a decimal before.

I'm sure it's nothing to worry about was just curious to see if the hive mind had experienced anything similar.

 

[wjemather]

Sounds like some people don't want vanity handicappers in their elite level competitions but they don't think similar restrictions should be put in by clubs to stop sandbaggers.
Us low level oiks must do what were told by the great and good who introduced the idiocy that is WHS.

Of course they don't; if you have a field full of players whose true ability is nearer 5 than scratch (and below), it's no longer an elite competition.

I've not heard of a single instance of a policy similar to EG's elite comps policy being implemented anywhere. And to repeat this again - EG's elite comps policy is NOT a restriction on the number of GP scores; it is simply a trigger for review to ensure the HI is a true reflection of ability.

 

[rosecott]

It had crossed my mind and would be more in line but I've never seen course handicap expressed as a decimal before.

I'm sure it's nothing to worry about was just curious to see if the hive mind had experienced anything similar.

Since April this year, our ISV - Handicapmaster - routinely shows CH as a decimal on start sheets as that is now used in the calculation of PH.

 

[D-S]

That would have been useful at a 4BB run at our club recently.
The labels had CH as a whole number and the PH obviously as a whole number. The number of people who asked (or moaned that the committee had got it wrong) why is my or PH is not 85% of my CH? look I’ve just done the maths - why am I losing a shot or why is he getting an extra shot?
Simply having the CH as a decimal would have stopped the confusion and moaning.

 

[wjemather]

That would have been useful at a 4BB run at our club recently.
The labels had CH as a whole number and the PH obviously as a whole number. The number of people who asked (or moaned that the committee had got it wrong) why is my or PH is not 85% of my CH? look I’ve just done the maths - why am I losing a shot or why is he getting an extra shot?
Simply having the CH as a decimal would have stopped the confusion and moaning.

Confusion and moaning have been there throughout the history of handicapping. Nothing will ever stop them, particularly the moaning.

 

[clubchamp98]

One of the points about the first part of that is that most elite or low handicap events get too many entrants in the first instance so players get balloted out,
so someone who has a handicap lower than their ability is stopping a 'qualified' player from getting in.

Yes but at the other end of the handicap scale.
Some carpetbagger is winning and stopping a genuine handicap player winning.

If they think it’s a problem at elite level it’s a problem at every level.
Putting a system in place that is easy to manipulate and expecting volunteers on the handicap comittiee to police it is asking for trouble.
Some committees are very good but some are not.
It’s a lottery.

I think that’s now what we have ,after several years we’re still hearing the same complaints.

 

[3offTheTee]

We have a pro's Comp every Wednesday. 2 guys signed in and had forms printed @9.25 a.m. but no scores were entered on their EG App.

It may have been a genuine error, unlikely, but this is manipulating handicap. Whilst the pro has taken the money I doubt whether he checked whether all competitors had entered scores.

 

[donaldslackss]

Seems like an admin headache! How will they track which scores are general play and which are comps? Seems easier to just encourage more competition!

 

[PaulMdj]

We have a pro's Comp every Wednesday. 2 guys signed in and had forms printed @9.25 a.m. but no scores were entered on their EG App.

It may have been a genuine error, unlikely, but this is manipulating handicap. Whilst the pro has taken the money I doubt whether he checked whether all competitors had entered scores.

We run a “Captains Card” on a wednesday, Pro shop runs the comp, takes money, prints labels, etc. But the Comp is sanctioned by the Club so neither the Captain or Pro are responsible for checking scores against entries, that is still down to the Comps Committee.

Is the committee not involved at your place?

 

[LincolnShep]

Seems like an admin headache! How will they track which scores are general play and which are comps? Seems easier to just encourage more competition!

If you log into EG as a handicap secretary, the scores are flagged as General Play or Competition.

 

[jim8flog]

If you log into EG as a handicap secretary, the scores are flagged as General Play or Competition.

Would you want the job to go through say 100 players in a comp to check each players handicap records?