WHS and club completions

[D-S]

They have and the club are still going ahead with it for board comps, email came out this week.

I spoke to the Captain about it and he said EG had spoken to him but the clubs stance is that people can still put in GP cards all they want but to be eligible for board comp prizes you can’t have more than 5 GP’s in your last 20.

It’s a club rule on how they offer out prizes so I can’t see how EG can stop them.

The only exception is gross comps (club championship is the only one I think), can have as many GP’s as you want then.

For your information this is an extract from today’s EG mail to clubs. The bolded words are not done by me, EG write it like this.
“The criteria required to be eligible for a competition needs to be written in the Terms of the Competition. What is key when introducing these terms is that you CANNOTdiscriminate between general play or competition scores, as it is NOT allowed to restrict the number of general play scores to be submitted. For example, you can say 'to be eligible it is required X number of acceptable scores or a minimum of X competition scores', but you CANNOT stipulate 'you are only allowed a maximum of X general play scores in your last 20'. Please note, if introducing these terms, you need to ensure that golfers have the facility to submit the acceptable scores required to get into certain competitions. A club is required to be inclusive of their entire membership.”

 

[Swango1980]

They have and the club are still going ahead with it for board comps, email came out this week.

I spoke to the Captain about it and he said EG had spoken to him but the clubs stance is that people can still put in GP cards all they want but to be eligible for board comp prizes you can’t have more than 5 GP’s in your last 20.

It’s a club rule on how they offer out prizes so I can’t see how EG can stop them.

The only exception is gross comps (club championship is the only one I think), can have as many GP’s as you want then.

I don't like to be too harsh, but whoever making this decision at your club is a joke...

Many golfers will not be able to submit as many GP scores as they want, because it will probably make many of them ineligible for these board competitions. To be eligible, 75% of their handicap rounds would need to be in competitions (which are eligible for handicap themselves). I'm not sure how many comps you have at your place, we have comps most weekends (usually singles, but not always). We've had 15 eligible weekend competitions (including 2 two day events and an Open) since 19th May 2024. So, assuming a member was able to enter ALL of these competitions, it would restrict them to only 5 GP rounds in the last 3.5 months. Of course, many members can only play a handful of weekend competitions, which could restrict them to 5 GP rounds over a period of many months or even over a year or 2.

You'll also get ridiculous situations where there'll be a golfer whose handicap is far too high for them, and their friends will moan when they keep winning roll ups, or they keep doing well in the odd club comp or knockout. People will be angry that the member never submits a GP score to get their handicap down, but their excuse will be "I can't submit a GP score, as I already have 5 in my last 20". So, they could submit a GP score and potentially get a nice cut if they play well, but cannot do so because of the clubs ridiculous condition

 

[Swango1980]

Today’s email from EG to all clubs firmly stamps on this club’s email / policy / practice/ rumour.

I would suggest that they have already had a quiet word with the club and they will be be worth drawing from their stance pdq.

Looks like they have also realised clubs are not acting on the fact that 4BBB scores can now be included, by directly setting it up on the ISV. Gave that a mention.

I've played 5 of these events since April. Not once has the club (different clubs) set it up for handicapping, and on one occasion a club tried to directly enter everyone's score as GP rounds, sticking every hole theyir partner scores on as a blob and completely butchering everyone's record

 

[clubchamp98]

I don't like to be too harsh, but whoever making this decision at your club is a joke...

Many golfers will not be able to submit as many GP scores as they want, because it will probably make many of them ineligible for these board competitions. To be eligible, 75% of their handicap rounds would need to be in competitions (which are eligible for handicap themselves). I'm not sure how many comps you have at your place, we have comps most weekends (usually singles, but not always). We've had 15 eligible weekend competitions (including 2 two day events and an Open) since 19th May 2024. So, assuming a member was able to enter ALL of these competitions, it would restrict them to only 5 GP rounds in the last 3.5 months. Of course, many members can only play a handful of weekend competitions, which could restrict them to 5 GP rounds over a period of many months or even over a year or 2.

You'll also get ridiculous situations where there'll be a golfer whose handicap is far too high for them, and their friends will moan when they keep winning roll ups, or they keep doing well in the odd club comp or knockout. People will be angry that the member never submits a GP score to get their handicap down, but their excuse will be "I can't submit a GP score, as I already have 5 in my last 20". So, they could submit a GP score and potentially get a nice cut if they play well, but cannot do so because of the clubs ridiculous condition

Yes I agree with your summary .
But it’s a bit two faced of EG as they ballot out oversubscribed elite comps by using how many comp cards over GP Cards.
While not quite the same scenario they are ruling GP cards inferior to comp cards.

I don’t like WHS but clubs must stick to the rules if they are affiliated.

 

[Banchory Buddha]

Yes I agree with your summary .
But it’s a bit two faced of EG as they ballot out oversubscribed elite comps by using how many comp cards over GP Cards.
While not quite the same scenario they are ruling GP cards inferior to comp cards.

I don’t like WHS but clubs must stick to the rules if they are affiliated.

Yup, they were the ones that broke the dam, and now it's "No we didn't mean you could do this, just us"

 

[clubchamp98]

Yup, they were the ones that broke the damn, and now it's "No we didn't mean you could do this, just us"

Yes they have admitted there is a problem with GP cards at elite level.
But won’t admit it’s a problem at ALL levels of the sport!

 

[D-S]

Yes I agree with your summary .
But it’s a bit two faced of EG as they ballot out oversubscribed elite comps by using how many comp cards over GP Cards.
While not quite the same scenario they are ruling GP cards inferior to comp cards.

I don’t like WHS but clubs must stick to the rules if they are affiliated.

Just to come back on your point about EG elite comp policy, this is how they addressed your point in today’s mail:-

“Confusion may have arisen by the introduction of England Golf's Terms of the Competition, whereby it is stated 'if a player has 4 or more general play scores, the record will be reviewed by comparing the competitor's competition scores with their general play scores'. This is allowable, as it is not preventing the submission of general play scores, nor setting a maximum of general play scores which can be submitted. The restriction into the competition is based upon a comparison between the competition and general play scores. Counties and clubs are able to adopt the England Golf Terms of the Competition if they wish - they are available on our website.”

 

[Swango1980]

Yes I agree with your summary .
But it’s a bit two faced of EG as they ballot out oversubscribed elite comps by using how many comp cards over GP Cards.
While not quite the same scenario they are ruling GP cards inferior to comp cards.

I don’t like WHS but clubs must stick to the rules if they are affiliated.

I'd say there is a difference, though. EG have use this to filter the field if it is over subscribed. I'd applaud this. Rather than just opting to simply chuck out the highest handicappers, they are allowing themselves to have a more detailed look into handicap records, and essentially pick people who have demonstrated more of their ability in competitions than others. Plus, if the GP scores on the record are of a similar level to the competition scores, I think this would be deemed pretty acceptable anyway. I think the issue was when the GP scores were significantly better than competition scores, then entry might be refused?

In this case, we are just talking about club competitions. I'm assuming they are not over-subscribed? The club also have a handicap committee and competition committee, so if they were genuinely concerned about the handicaps of a few people, then it is in their power to act. They are in a better position to do so, that those running EG competitions where the field all come from different clubs and their own Committees. And, there are still various conditions of entry they can set that are nowhere near as restrictive as what they have done. I pretty much play golf in all out competitions, but I also love submitting scores every chance I get. 12 of my last 20 rounds are GP scores, so I'd be snookered at this club If I was ever looking for another club and this one was nearby, their conditions of comp would immediately rule them out for me.

 

[wjemather]

Clearly there remains a (sometimes willful) lack of understanding of EG's elite tournament policy.

EG place no restriction on the number of GP scores a player may have on their (recent) record.
The number of GP scores is merely a trigger for analysis to see if there is evidence of possible, and previously undetected, manipulation of General Play scores, in order to gain entry to an event that is balloted on handicap.

 

[wjemather]

Yes they have admitted there is a problem with GP cards at elite level.
But won’t admit it’s a problem at ALL levels of the sport!

No; they simply recognise that not all handicap committees are equal (or even exist).

Clubs are free to apply a similar trigger and difference based criteria in their terms of competition.
However, it's a lot of extra work for what is supposedly just a fun golf competition; and for member-only comps, the handicap committee should already have identified and be dealing with any potential issues.

 

[Backache]

They are basically saying we want to keep oiks out of our competitions which we will do by a secretive process which we will call reviewing cards.
But you plebs can't keep cheats out by a transparent process requiring completion cards to be used for competitions.

 

[wjemather]

They are basically saying we want to keep oiks out of our competitions which we will do by a secretive process which we will call reviewing cards.
But you plebs can't keep cheats out by a transparent process requiring completion cards to be used for competitions.

There is nothing secretive about it.

 

[clubchamp98]

No; they simply recognise that not all handicap committees are equal (or even exist).

Clubs are free to apply a similar trigger and difference based criteria in their terms of competition.
However, it's a lot of extra work for what is supposedly just a fun golf competition; and for member-only comps, the handicap committee should already have identified and be dealing with any potential issues.

Isn’t that what this club has done for their Board Comps ( t&c)but are being told they can’t.

 

[Swango1980]

Isn’t that what this club has done for their Board Comps ( t&c)but are being told they can’t.

No. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see it:

England Golf: if an elite competition is over-subscribed, they can review handicap records in more detail, and can choose to not accept entry to those who have a certain no. of GP rounds, and those GP rounds are significantly better than their competition rounds.

This Club: Complete ban on anyone with more than 5 GP rounds in last 20 (or ban on winning anything anyway)

 

[IanM]

For your information this is an extract from today’s EG mail to clubs. The bolded words are not done by me, EG write it like this.
“The criteria required to be eligible for a competition needs to be written in the Terms of the Competition. What is key when introducing these terms is that you CANNOTdiscriminate between general play or competition scores, as it is NOT allowed to restrict the number of general play scores to be submitted. For example, you can say 'to be eligible it is required X number of acceptable scores or a minimum of X competition scores', but you CANNOT stipulate 'you are only allowed a maximum of X general play scores in your last 20'. Please note, if introducing these terms, you need to ensure that golfers have the facility to submit the acceptable scores required to get into certain competitions. A club is required to be inclusive of their entire membership.”

Who writes their emails?

After copious use of the word CANNOT, it then says, "Please note, if introducing these terms........." Hang on, I thought you cannot!

If I was handed that to approve, it'd be going back for a rewrite! Very contradictory.

 

[Swango1980]

Who writes their emails?

After copious use of the word CANNOT, it then says, "Please note, if introducing these terms........." Hang on, I thought you cannot!

If I was handed that to approve, it'd be going back for a rewrite! Very contradictory.

I get what you are saying. I read it as if a club DOES do all these things they have just been told they cannot do, they need to ensure golfers have the facility to submit acceptable scores.

Well, if the club has said 15 of the last 20 need to be competition scores, they can technically argue "we hold competitions at our club, so golfers have the facility to submit acceptable scores"

I doubt it would take a lawyer of Leicester City to support the club on this one, if England Golf ever fought them on it

 

[wjemather]

Isn’t that what this club has done for their Board Comps ( t&c)but are being told they can’t.

No. See #77.

 

[clubchamp98]

No. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see it:

England Golf: if an elite competition is over-subscribed, they can review handicap records in more detail, and can choose to not accept entry to those who have a certain no. of GP rounds, and those GP rounds are significantly better than their competition rounds.

This Club: Complete ban on anyone with more than 5 GP rounds in last 20 (or ban on winning anything anyway)

Yes but I did say “ not the same scenario “
But the optics are not great.

“We can stipulate about GP cards but you can’t!”

They have put in a system that relies heavily on handicap committees then they tell them they can’t do what EG are doing.
You couldn’t make it up.

 

[clubchamp98]

No. See #77.

They must have a reason for these limits.
We just don’t know what it is.

 

[Springveldt]

For your information this is an extract from today’s EG mail to clubs. The bolded words are not done by me, EG write it like this.
“The criteria required to be eligible for a competition needs to be written in the Terms of the Competition. What is key when introducing these terms is that you CANNOTdiscriminate between general play or competition scores, as it is NOT allowed to restrict the number of general play scores to be submitted. For example, you can say 'to be eligible it is required X number of acceptable scores or a minimum of X competition scores', but you CANNOT stipulate 'you are only allowed a maximum of X general play scores in your last 20'. Please note, if introducing these terms, you need to ensure that golfers have the facility to submit the acceptable scores required to get into certain competitions. A club is required to be inclusive of their entire membership.”

For example, you can say 'to be eligible it is required X number of acceptable scores or a minimum of X competition scores'

So the club just needs to reword the email to say "To be eligible for board competition prizes you must have a minimum of 15 competition scores" and everything is cool then?