WHS and club completions

[Springveldt]

I don't like to be too harsh, but whoever making this decision at your club is a joke...

Many golfers will not be able to submit as many GP scores as they want, because it will probably make many of them ineligible for these board competitions. To be eligible, 75% of their handicap rounds would need to be in competitions (which are eligible for handicap themselves). I'm not sure how many comps you have at your place, we have comps most weekends (usually singles, but not always). We've had 15 eligible weekend competitions (including 2 two day events and an Open) since 19th May 2024. So, assuming a member was able to enter ALL of these competitions, it would restrict them to only 5 GP rounds in the last 3.5 months. Of course, many members can only play a handful of weekend competitions, which could restrict them to 5 GP rounds over a period of many months or even over a year or 2.

You'll also get ridiculous situations where there'll be a golfer whose handicap is far too high for them, and their friends will moan when they keep winning roll ups, or they keep doing well in the odd club comp or knockout. People will be angry that the member never submits a GP score to get their handicap down, but their excuse will be "I can't submit a GP score, as I already have 5 in my last 20". So, they could submit a GP score and potentially get a nice cut if they play well, but cannot do so because of the clubs ridiculous condition

I've only been here for this season so no idea who is making the decision but I'm guessing it's people who have been at the club for a long time and feel it is necessary.

As for comps, there is one nearly every weekend but there is also a midweek sweep which runs from Monday-Friday. You can enter as many times as you want on any of those days so essentially there is usually a comp available to enter on 6 of the 7 days.

During the winter I played in the roll up which one of the members run. There are over 20 people in it and you have a different handicap from your official handicap and you get cuts/raises for every round which he tracks in a book.

 

[Swango1980]

I've only been here for this season so no idea who is making the decision but I'm guessing it's people who have been at the club for a long time and feel it is necessary.

As for comps, there is one nearly every weekend but there is also a midweek sweep which runs from Monday-Friday. You can enter as many times as you want on any of those days so essentially there is usually a comp available to enter on 6 of the 7 days.

During the winter I played in the roll up which one of the members run. There are over 20 people in it and you have a different handicap from your official handicap and you get cuts/raises for every round which he tracks in a book.

On regards to the winter, presumably these scores don't go onto official handicap record as well? I guess they don't, otherwise there'd be no need to run unofficial handicaps.

So, in that case, although it is nice to run something like that if course isn't set up for official handicapping, it is of no use to golfers needing to ensure 75% of their handicap rounds are in competition

 

[Swango1980]

Yes but I did say “ not the same scenario “
But the optics are not great.

“We can stipulate about GP cards but you can’t!”

They have put in a system that relies heavily on handicap committees then they tell them they can’t do what EG are doing.
You couldn’t make it up.

But, based on the post of mine you replied to, that isn't what is happening if I'm correct. Not generally, albeit it is the optics you choose to see?

EG are not limiting GP scores at all for entry requirements. They are simply saying that if any entrant has a larger number of them, they'll just have an extra check to see if they are significantly better than comp scores. If not, the player still likely to be entered into comp?

We all know that some golfers can still manipulate the system, particularly with GP scores. Let's not pretend it doesn't happen, and let's not pretend EG don't know it. If they didn't have these guidelines, we'd all accuse them of burying their head in the sand.

However, this club has gone a million miles further. They've essentially said they don't trust GP scores at all, and 100% of members with more than 25% GP scores are excluded. As if they are all handicap cheats. I play nearly all my comps, and as I pointed out earlier, I'd be excluded from all their prizes as just over half my scores are GP.

Would be interesting to know of those in here: How many others have more than 5 GP scores in their last 20?

 

[Deleted member 15717]

Would be interesting to know of those in here: How many others have more than 5 GP scores in their last 20?

Just counted mine, and would be 10-12 of my last 20 are GP I believe. Wish the app would make it more obvious

 

[Swango1980]

Just counted mine, and would be 10-12 of my last 20 are GP I believe. Wish the app would make it more obvious

Agreed. Club officials can see it clearly, but not us plebs using the normal MyEG App.

That might be another issue for members at this club? Told they can only have 5GP scores in last 20, but struggle to know how many of their scores are GP scores

 

[wjemather]

They must have a reason for these limits.
We just don’t know what it is.

Commonly, blanket GP restrictions are based on the fallacy that (for example) 50p rollup competitions are special and scores from them produce a more accurate handicap.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

They are basically saying we want to keep oiks out of our competitions which we will do by a secretive process which we will call reviewing cards.
But you plebs can't keep cheats out by a transparent process requiring completion cards to be used for competitions.

I'd say there is a difference, though. EG have use this to filter the field if it is over subscribed. I'd applaud this. Rather than just opting to simply chuck out the highest handicappers, they are allowing themselves to have a more detailed look into handicap records, and essentially pick people who have demonstrated more of their ability in competitions than others. Plus, if the GP scores on the record are of a similar level to the competition scores, I think this would be deemed pretty acceptable anyway. I think the issue was when the GP scores were significantly better than competition scores, then entry might be refused?

In this case, we are just talking about club competitions. I'm assuming they are not over-subscribed? The club also have a handicap committee and competition committee, so if they were genuinely concerned about the handicaps of a few people, then it is in their power to act. They are in a better position to do so, that those running EG competitions where the field all come from different clubs and their own Committees. And, there are still various conditions of entry they can set that are nowhere near as restrictive as what they have done. I pretty much play golf in all out competitions, but I also love submitting scores every chance I get. 12 of my last 20 rounds are GP scores, so I'd be snookered at this club If I was ever looking for another club and this one was nearby, their conditions of comp would immediately rule them out for me.

Oh I see, so not all cards are created equal then? So what's the point of WHS?

And, you've literally just repeated Backache's critique, it's OK for EG, but not for clubs who actually would know their members far better than EG's "analysis"

 

[Deleted member 30522]

No. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see it:

England Golf: if an elite competition is over-subscribed, they can review handicap records in more detail, and can choose to not accept entry to those who have a certain no. of GP rounds, and those GP rounds are significantly better than their competition rounds.

This Club: Complete ban on anyone with more than 5 GP rounds in last 20 (or ban on winning anything anyway)

Evidence suggests that GP rounds generally are better as people feel the pressure of competition, so this is utter hogwash. EG (and only EG btw) are saying not all WHS cards are created equal. If GP cards are not the same as competition cards (and many of us have said that from the outset) then GP cards should be removed from WHS (as many of us have said from the outset)

 

[Swango1980]

Oh I see, so not all cards are created equal then? So what's the point of WHS?

And, you've literally just repeated Backache's critique, it's OK for EG, but not for clubs who actually would know their members far better than EG's "analysis"

Sadly, all you are doing is reading the words you want to read, applying your own context, and then using it to justify your apparent dislike of WHS and MyEG in this case

Try being a bit more objective, then your arguments might have more credibility?

I've asked the question: Are England Golf actually banning entry to competitions purely based on the number of GP rounds in the last 20? OR, is this simply a flag that, if true, then the handicap record is just analysed a little further to see if the GP scores stack up with how the player does competitively? Because, this is not what the club in the OP are doing. They've simple enforced a strict "no more than 5 GP scores in 20 if you are to win a prize , end of conversation"

Evidence suggests that GP rounds generally are better as people feel the pressure of competition, so this is utter hogwash. EG (and only EG btw) are saying not all WHS cards are created equal. If GP cards are not the same as competition cards (and many of us have said that from the outset) then GP cards should be removed from WHS (as many of us have said from the outset)

If anyone made this recommendation, my view is that it is simply garbage. I agree that there are all sorts of issues with handicapping, and many of these have been more difficult to control since WHS, simply down to the scale of GP scores being submitted and the fact handicaps are much more volatile now, especially in the upwards direction. But, banning GP scores from handicapping is just absurd in my opinion. I'm glad the days are gone that we don't have to rely on a handicap based on maybe a dozen competitions in a year because that is all you could play in (and some people far far less than that)

 

[D-S]

Evidence suggests that GP rounds generally are better as people feel the pressure of competition, so this is utter hogwash. EG (and only EG btw) are saying not all WHS cards are created equal. If GP cards are not the same as competition cards (and many of us have said that from the outset) then GP cards should be removed from WHS (as many of us have said from the outset)

I think the idea of removing GP scores entirely from WHS would be a severe retrograde step and extremely unpopular.

However there does seem to be sone sort of a cloud over them which is leading more and more clubs to demand competition scores in a player's record. Also as Swango has pointed out even EG have obliquely omitted, GP scores are the easier/preferred route for handicap manipulation and have awarded them some sort of an inferior status to even the smallest most insignificant competition rounds.

My understanding is that the Spanish Golf Federation limit the number of GP cards (1 per month?) and do not allow elite players to input them. This also seems draconian, but maybe 1 per week? Maybe less in winter? as there are many cases of players legitimately entering many GP scores (when some courses are playing significantly longer and more difficult muddy green side lies, less than true greens etc,) then their HI necessarily rises only to clear up when conditions return back to normal.

I realise that in a perfect world all handicap committees would be win top of this and, if they are, there is not an issue, however we do not live in a perfect world.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

I think the idea of removing GP scores entirely from WHS would be a severe retrograde step and extremely unpopular.

However there does seem to be sone sort of a cloud over them which is leading more and more clubs to demand competition scores in a player's record. Also as Swango has pointed out even EG have obliquely omitted, GP scores are the easier/preferred route for handicap manipulation and have awarded them some sort of an inferior status to even the smallest most insignificant competition rounds.

My understanding is that the Spanish Golf Federation limit the number of GP cards (1 per month?) and do not allow elite players to input them. This also seems draconian, but maybe 1 per week? Maybe less in winter? as there are many cases of players legitimately entering many GP scores (when some courses are playing significantly longer and more difficult muddy green side lies, less than true greens etc,) then their HI necessarily rises only to clear up when conditions return back to normal.

I realise that in a perfect world all handicap committees would be win top of this and, if they are, there is not an issue, however we do not live in a perfect world.

It's very difficult, at my home club GP cards are almost never put in by people who play in the comps, but conversely the GP cards that are being entered are almost entirely from people who've never played a single medal round, so clearly they get something out of the challenge of having a handicap, but not bothered about shiny pots and pans. You ban them or limit them, you then alienate that demographic that have been encouraged by the ease the new Apps have made of entering GP scores.

 

[woofers]

So, Competition scores vs General Play scores

Generally speaking a competition score will comply with the Rules of Handicapping :

• the player has intent to submit the score
• it will be pre-registered
• it will be played in an authorised format for handicaps
• it will be attested by a fellow competitor
• it will be usually be submitted promptly

A General Play score need not satisfy any of the above and still find its way onto a handicap record, it’s only the vigilance of a, (usually volunteer), handicap committee that will pick up, or “police” these submissions.
My own experience of these issues :

• scores being registered and completed after the round
• scorecards being downloaded and completed when the course has been closed
• scores being submitted from team events such as “best 2 of 4”
• scores being submitted from our 4BBB Open, despite being set up correctly as acceptable in IG
• scores being submitted from Pro Ams by the playing Pros
• scores being attested by a person not witnessing the round, and in some cases not even at the golf course.
• score intents sitting in EG for days after registration

So it’s quite easy to see why General Play cards can be treated with some scepticism when they can be uploaded so easily and circumvent the Rules.

Does it matter?
To some, no, who cares ? in the greater scheme of things it’s irrelevant if someone is that desperate, or ignorant of the Rules.
To others, yes, rules are rules although the system is ill equipped to ensure compliance at source and relies on club resources to monitor it.
(How does iGolf manage?)
In the “marking a 4BBB card” thread there’s a bit of talk about integrity and trust, my experience is that people will do what they can get away with, if so minded, and the systems allow it.

The “winners” in the General Play submissions are the executives at England Golf who can say they are growing the game, “just look at all the scores being submitted”.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

The “winners” in the General Play submissions are the executives at England Golf who can say they are growing the game, “just look at all the scores being submitted”.

Absolutely the case at Scottish Golf, someone is on a bonus or KPI to get number of playing handicaps and GP cards up

 

[NearHull]

Absolutely the case at Scottish Golf, someone is on a bonus or KPI to get number of playing handicaps and GP cards up

There is a well known saying ‘ Tell me how I am measured and I will tell you how I will behave’.

 

[nickjdavis]

It's very difficult, at my home club GP cards are almost never put in by people who play in the comps, but conversely the GP cards that are being entered are almost entirely from people who've never played a single medal round, so clearly they get something out of the challenge of having a handicap, but not bothered about shiny pots and pans. You ban them or limit them, you then alienate that demographic that have been encouraged by the ease the new Apps have made of entering GP scores.

I think this "inverse correlation " is more common than many might think. I see exactly the same patterns at my own club.

Sure there is some crossover... a small handful of players who submit a high number of both comp and general play scores...but it is an insignificant minority of the membership.

 

[VVega]

Agreed. Club officials can see it clearly, but not us plebs using the normal MyEG App.

That might be another issue for members at this club? Told they can only have 5GP scores in last 20, but struggle to know how many of their scores are GP scores

On IG app in Handicap / Rounds I can see all comps I played, so it’s straightforward to see how many of these I played in the last 20.

 

[rulefan]

Some county and elite level events have stated you can’t have any general play cards in your last 20, or the difference between the competition and GP cards can’t be greater than ‘x’ amount.

As I understand it, EG and the Counties are not forbidding entry based on GP v Comp scores.
Only if a particular competition is oversubscribed then those plyers who have a certain ratio/proportion of GP v Comp scores will be eliminated from the draw. If a comp is not oversubscribed no one will be eliminated.

 

[doublebogey7]

As I understand it, EG and the Counties are not forbidding entry based on GP v Comp scores.
Only if a particular competition is oversubscribed then those plyers who have a certain ratio/proportion of GP v Comp scores will be eliminated from the draw. If a comp is not oversubscribed no one will be eliminated.

And even then only if their average score over their GP rounds is significantly better than their competition average score.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

As I understand it, EG and the Counties are not forbidding entry based on GP v Comp scores.
Only if a particular competition is oversubscribed then those plyers who have a certain ratio/proportion of GP v Comp scores will be eliminated from the draw. If a comp is not oversubscribed no one will be eliminated.

I know for a fact Kent Golf Union would not allow anyone to enter the Kent Amateur Championship that had any general play cards in their last 20 scores.
A friend of mine was stopped from entering because he had a couple in his record.

 

[rulefan]

I know for a fact Kent Golf Union would not allow anyone to enter the Kent Amateur Championship that had any general play cards in their last 20 scores.
A friend of mine was stopped from entering because he had a couple in his record.

There doesn't seem to be anything on the Kent website that specifies the entrance qualification