WHS and club completions

[IanM]

Ah, here we (all) go again...

 

[nickjdavis]

Education.

Ultimately, by putting such restrictions in place for internal comps, clubs are saying that they don't have any faith in their handicap committee to identify manipulation - they should probably address that (county assistance is available).

Whilst in the context of handicap manipulation your point is valid, there are other reasons why committees may wish to put a restriction in place and specify that a certain number of scores from competitions need to be part of a players record over the last X months.

There are some competitions that, by nature of the "event", rather than the prizes on offer, may be more popular than the run of the mill Sunday Medal or a Stableford in memory of someone who nobody remembers (that's irony for you), and committees may wish to at least give those who have supported club comps throughout the year, the chance of entering said competitions, ahead of those folk who actively choose not be be part of the "competition community", until it suits them.

 

[rulefan]

If the Authorities are having to alter their rules of entry to counter WHS manipulation it is hardly fair to criticise clubs for doing the same.

Club Handicap Committees have much more control and power to handle manipulation by their members. EG and County administrators have virtually no first hand knowledge of what players get up to. They are simply having to react to committee weaknesses.

 

[Backache]

Club Handicap Committees have much more control and power to handle manipulation by their members. EG and County administrators have virtually no first hand knowledge of what players get up to. They are simply having to react to committee weaknesses.

The clubs have had a system dumped on them that is intrinsically easy to manipulate. Can't blame them, I'd hate to be a handicap secretary now.

 

[Backache]

But the basic restrictions we keep hearing about don't do anything to counter manipulation.

Well if the manipulation as is often suggested is by frequently putting in unrepresentative General play scores, Restricting the number should counter manipulation.

 

[Bazzatron]

I'll just keep putting my scorecard in for every round I play and they can shove the comps.

 

[wjemather]

Well if the manipulation as is often suggested is by frequently putting in unrepresentative General play scores, Restricting the number should counter manipulation.

All it does is exclude countless players with genuine GP scores who are properly maintaining their handicaps. The plan to thwart the hypothetical cheats fails because even the ones who were stupid enough to think that posting high gp scores would go unnoticed are just going to manipulate competition scores and get in anyway.

 

[Backache]

All it does is exclude countless players with genuine GP scores who are properly maintaining their handicaps. The plan to thwart the hypothetical cheats fails because even the ones who were stupid enough to think that posting high gp scores would go unnoticed are just going to manipulate competition scores and get in anyway.

There are a lot more opportunities to put in GP scores than competitive scores ergo more opportunity to manipulate handicap.
Nothing can abolish it but it will make it more difficult. Competitive golf has greater checks in draws meaning the scores are better attested. Yes you can still manipulate but it's harder.
If people want to enter competitions then let their handicap be representative of competitive golf.

 

[wjemather]

Just received an email from my club stating that starting next April you will not be eligible for any prizes in club competitions if you have more than 5 general play scores in your last 20. They say that others clubs and open competitions will be adopting this rule if they don't already.

So, are there any clubs out there just now that are doing this? It won't affect me as most of my scores are in comps anyway but doesn't this go against the spirit of WHS of putting a card in most times you play?

From James Luke (Head of Handicapping & Course Rating at EG) in response to being presented with your club's email to members:

"This is NOT England Golf guidance. Please would you be able to let me know of the club and i will arrange a conversation to clarify the rules of handicapping.

You are NOT allowed to prevent the submission of general play scores."

 

[D-S]

I would guess if this was brought to EG’s attention or the County, a quiet word might be had.

I see from the EG Facebook group that someone has already posted a copy of what I assume to be this email.
The EG head of Handicapping James Luke has already posted and said that this is totally contrary to all guidance and that clubs cannot prevent the submission of GP scores.
He has asked for details so that he can ‘clarify’ the rules of Handicapping with the club involved.
I think this will be reversed fairly quickly.

 

[jim8flog]

The clubs have had a system dumped on them that is intrinsically easy to manipulate. Can't blame them, I'd hate to be a handicap secretary now.

The manipulation has always been there regardless of the system.

We had to suspend the handicap of one single figure player at our club for doing this (he was given several warnings before we acted)

We had another who never put in a single card in comps at the club he only ever entered elite events and was nowhere near good enough to be in them.

The biggest 'manipulation' has always come from those that used to only put in 3 cards a year to maintain an 'artificially' high handicap and winning away opens.

 

[jim8flog]

There are a lot more opportunities to put in GP scores than competitive scores ergo more opportunity to manipulate handicap.
Nothing can abolish it but it will make it more difficult. Competitive golf has greater checks in draws meaning the scores are better attested. Yes you can still manipulate but it's harder.
If people want to enter competitions then let their handicap be representative of competitive golf.

There has been the the availability to put in GP scores* long before the WHS came in and was something that was positively encouraged in the years leading up tot he start of the WHS

*Supplementary Scores and the only players who could not do this were very low single figure players.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

There has been the the availability to put in GP scores* long before the WHS came in and was something that was positively encouraged in the years leading up tot he start of the WHS

*Supplementary Scores and the only players who could not do this were very low single figure players.

It’s been made a lot lot easier now with an APP

In the past most of the time people were only putting in supplementary scores to keep handicap active

 

[D-S]

There has been the the availability to put in GP scores* long before the WHS came in and was something that was positively encouraged in the years leading up tot he start of the WHS

*Supplementary Scores and the only players who could not do this were very low single figure players.

There were significant restrictions on Supplementary scores, not allowed for Cat1, only one per week etc. Typically they were manually entered by the Committee so there was a close scrutiny of them. This actually meant that most clubs received a handful per week.

Now most clubs are getting hundreds per week due to the lack of restrictions and the ease of submission via ISV or EG App - the two situations are totally different whether you think that is a good or a bad thing. Some clubs are excellent at scrutinising them, many are not. Cross referring score intent download times with tee booking sheets (if the club runs them) and submission times, checking the presence of the marker and so on is done by some but can be laborious. The amount of incorrect submissions is surprising, normally incorrect format played and attester not present. This requires continuing education but nearly 4 years in a lot of basic errors, for whatever reasons, are still being made.

 

[Springveldt]

There has been the the availability to put in GP scores* long before the WHS came in and was something that was positively encouraged in the years leading up tot he start of the WHS

*Supplementary Scores and the only players who could not do this were very low single figure players.

I only started playing again in 2016 and always thought under CONGU you could only put a score in while in a competition. Were supplementary scores only allowed for Cat 1 for plus golfers?

I see from the EG Facebook group that someone has already posted a copy of what I assume to be this email.
The EG head of Handicapping James Luke has already posted and said that this is totally contrary to all guidance and that clubs cannot prevent the submission of GP scores.
He has asked for details so that he can ‘clarify’ the rules of Handicapping with the club involved.
I think this will be reversed fairly quickly.

It's my first year at this club and from talking to other members there seems to be the feeling that there are guys who are using GP's to inflate their handicaps so even if they back track on this I'm expecting them to start using the format that elite events use and limit the number of GP's in the counting scores instead. Have you got a link to that Facebook group?

I really like WHS but it's pretty easy to manipulate your handicap if you are that way inclined and I guess the club feel they have an issue to try and bring in such drastic measures.

 

[jim8flog]

It’s been made a lot lot easier now with an APP

In the past most of the time people were only putting in supplementary scores to keep handicap active

It may easier but all it took was preregistering in the book in the proshop. We probably got 10 -20 a day. Ok since the WHS this has doubled to around 40 a day but this is probably down to more players being aware that they can do it. We get quite a few who put in a card every time they play (the system that is used by other countries).

Maintaining C status only needed 3 cards a year and this is what you often saw by players maintaining their handicap which could be considered handicap manipulation.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

It may easier but all it took was preregistering in the book in the proshop. We probably got 10 -20 a day. Ok since the WHS this has doubled to around 40 a day but this is probably down to more players being aware that they can do it. We get quite a few who put in a card every time they play (the system that is used by other countries).

Maintaining C status only needed 3 cards a year and this is what you often saw by players maintaining their handicap which could be considered handicap manipulation.

20 a day ?!

We got maybe 20 a year and every one due to people trying to keep their handicap C status

There was never anywhere near the same level of manipulation

But even then every card was checked before it went onto someone’s handicap record , there someone double

 

[jim8flog]

I only started playing again in 2016 and always thought under CONGU you could only put a score in while in a competition. Were supplementary scores only allowed for Cat 1 for plus golfers?

It was the other way round Cat 1 golfers were only allowed to put in SS scores after September and only the number needed to maintain competition status ie. a maximum of 3 if they had insufficient comp scores in that year.

 

[Springveldt]

There were significant restrictions on Supplementary scores, not allowed for Cat1, only one per week etc. Typically they were manually entered by the Committee so there was a close scrutiny of them. This actually meant that most clubs received a handful per week.

Now most clubs are getting hundreds per week due to the lack of restrictions and the ease of submission via ISV or EG App - the two situations are totally different whether you think that is a good or a bad thing. Some clubs are excellent at scrutinising them, many are not. Cross referring score intent download times with tee booking sheets (if the club runs them) and submission times, checking the presence of the marker and so on is done by some but can be laborious. The amount of incorrect submissions is surprising, normally incorrect format played and attester not present. This requires continuing education but nearly 4 years in a lot of basic errors, for whatever reasons, are still being made.

Ah, that answers my question above on the supplementary scores.

Our midweek sweep runs Monday-Friday and you can enter it on any day and play in it as many times as you want. The most entries I've ever seen this season is 16 and that's including me and 4 mates who all joined this year. I asked the club pro why it is so poorly supported (my last club usually have over 70 entries for the Wednesday sweep) and he said the vast majority of the membership are just putting in GP scores during the week now and don't want to pay the competition fee. Weekend comps are still fairly well supported with over 100 entries.

I just think there was a feeling at the club that guys were using the GP scores during the week to get a raise for the weekend comp.

 

[jim8flog]

20 a day ?!

We got maybe 20 a year and every one due to people trying to keep their handicap C status

There was never anywhere near the same level of manipulation

But even then every card was checked before it went onto someone’s handicap record , there someone double

In the WHS briefings we were instructed to encourage players to put in SS scores so that their 20 scores came from recent rounds rather than old historic rounds and to try to ensure all players had 20 on their playing record.

I do not know how thoroughly they were checked because putting the scores on the system was an office function, although I do not doubt the integrity of the person doing it. We did have a system to check all cards were returned which I introduced.

We are a very large club with around 800 members so 10-20 a day is not that many compared against the number of rounds being played every day.