WHS and club completions

[Slab]

Ah, that answers my question above on the supplementary scores.

Our midweek sweep runs Monday-Friday and you can enter it on any day and play in it as many times as you want. The most entries I've ever seen this season is 16 and that's including me and 4 mates who all joined this year. I asked the club pro why it is so poorly supported (my last club usually have over 70 entries for the Wednesday sweep) and he said the vast majority of the membership are just putting in GP scores during the week now and don't want to pay the competition fee. Weekend comps are still fairly well supported with over 100 entries.

I just think there was a feeling at the club that guys were using the GP scores during the week to get a raise for the weekend comp.

I think this is an important point and maybe suggests some clubs need to engage with membership to find out what they actually want from their club (at this time) rather than the club saying 'this is what we do, join in'
Club sees comp entries falling, GP's increasing (while blaming this facility for the odd bad egg(s) as its too easy to enter a GP) and club starts putting restrictions against the whole concept of GP, when the primary reason for large scale GP increase may have nothing to do with h/cap manipulation

 

[Neilds]

Questions for those on this thread that are adamant/convinced that loads of people at their club are cheating the system when putting in GP cards:

Have you reported it?
Have you put yourself forward to join the committee to try and monitor and prevent the cheating?

Or do you just talk about it in the bar/forum and do nothing?

 

[Backache]

Snitches get stitches, Frankly if the system is so ineptly designed as to encourage manipulation, I use it to suit my purposes and when others cheat I shrug my shoulders and laugh. It irritates me that a once decent though imperfect system has been so badly screwed up but when the system is this bad., I'm not going to dob in a few of the many.

 

[Slab]

Snitches get stitches, Frankly if the system is so ineptly designed as to encourage manipulation, I use it to suit my purposes and when others cheat I shrug my shoulders and laugh. It irritates me that a once decent though imperfect system has been so badly screwed up but when the system is this bad., I'm not going to dob in a few of the many.

I dunno that it encourages manipulation
First thing I thought of was, if shops don’t nail everything down do they just encourage shoplifting

A wrong 'un is a wrong 'un

 

[Backache]

I dunno that it encourages manipulation
First thing I thought of was, if shops don’t nail everything down do they just encourage shoplifting

A wrong 'un is a wrong 'un

It's getting slightly off topic but many shop displays and checkout mechanisms do indeed encourage shop lifting , but many of the shops have figured that it encourages sales more. If you facilitate something its frequency will almost certainly increase.

 

[HeftyHacker]

I was going to start a new thread for this but I guess my question kind of fits here:

Is it currently possible that clubs who have restrictions on the number of GP scores in the last X amount of scores can give a player a handicap based on those restrictions imposed?

The reason I ask is that I played in an Open at Silloth last week and, due to some uncertainty about whether or not I would be able to play the day prior, I had been removed from the tee sheet (as it happened we couldn't find a replacement so I put my big boy pants on and played anyway).

When I nipped into the office to have myself added back on I gave my CDH number and although my name and details came back correctly the HI wasn't one I recognised, neither current nor past.

I mentioned it to the gent helping me and he told me not to worry as because I was using a buggy without a medical cert I would be ineligible for prizes anyway so we left it there.

After thinking about it I was wondering if the handicap index it was returning was one based on competition results rather than my full list of scores.

For info the ISV being used was IntelligentGolf.

My HI at the time was 11.5 but the HI it was returning was in the high 13s (I can't remember exactly). The highest my HI has been recently - as in the last 3 years - was 13.4 in May this year.

I don't play in many singles comps and haven't for probably over a year now due to family life - most of my record now is built up GP cards submitted in evening rounds with mates. Competition golf tends to come in the form of pairs or Team opens.

If only competition scores were included then my HI would probably be more in the 13/14s which is what made me wonder if some sort of restrictions had been applied.

TLDR: can ISVs apply restrictions to calculate a comp handicap?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Questions for those on this thread that are adamant/convinced that loads of people at their club are cheating the system when putting in GP cards:

Have you reported it?
Have you put yourself forward to join the committee to try and monitor and prevent the cheating?

Or do you just talk about it in the bar/forum and do nothing?

Yes i have reported it

 

[NearHull]

I was going to start a new thread for this but I guess my question kind of fits here:

Is it currently possible that clubs who have restrictions on the number of GP scores in the last X amount of scores can give a player a handicap based on those restrictions imposed?

The reason I ask is that I played in an Open at Silloth last week and, due to some uncertainty about whether or not I would be able to play the day prior, I had been removed from the tee sheet (as it happened we couldn't find a replacement so I put my big boy pants on and played anyway).

When I nipped into the office to have myself added back on I gave my CDH number and although my name and details came back correctly the HI wasn't one I recognised, neither current nor past.

I mentioned it to the gent helping me and he told me not to worry as because I was using a buggy without a medical cert I would be ineligible for prizes anyway so we left it there.

After thinking about it I was wondering if the handicap index it was returning was one based on competition results rather than my full list of scores.

For info the ISV being used was IntelligentGolf.

My HI at the time was 11.5 but the HI it was returning was in the high 13s (I can't remember exactly). The highest my HI has been recently - as in the last 3 years - was 13.4 in May this year.

I don't play in many singles comps and haven't for probably over a year now due to family life - most of my record now is built up GP cards submitted in evening rounds with mates. Competition golf tends to come in the form of pairs or Team opens.

If only competition scores were included then my HI would probably be more in the 13/14s which is what made me wonder if some sort of restrictions had been applied.

TLDR: can ISVs apply restrictions to calculate a comp handicap?

When I have set up Open Competition using ClubV1, the ISV cannot apppky any handicap restriction/selection other than a Maximum HI or Maximum PH. I print entry labels only on the morning of the competition and the ISV is fed by the EG Database with current EG generated HI.

 

[Springveldt]

Questions for those on this thread that are adamant/convinced that loads of people at their club are cheating the system when putting in GP cards:

Have you reported it?
Have you put yourself forward to join the committee to try and monitor and prevent the cheating?

Or do you just talk about it in the bar/forum and do nothing?

As I said, it's my first year at the club so I've only heard mutterings in the bar from other members. I don't know enough members or look at general play scores to know if this is happening. We have had quite a few exceptional scores this year though, it's a par 72, course rating 72.4 with a slope of 135 yet we have had a 49 in a texas scramble (they were getting 13 shots but the indexes of the 4 players were 7, 7, 26 and 30), 60 in better ball strokeplay, 48 and 46 points in weekend comps and a 46 in a Seniors Open BB stableford comp when it was blowing 40mph (I was in the bar when that one got read out after playing behind the comp and both me an my playing partner burst out laughing at it).

The fact the club have tried to introduce this new rule from next year would suggest there have been complaints or the handicap committee think something isn't as it should be.

 

[Slab]

As I said, it's my first year at the club so I've only heard mutterings in the bar from other members. I don't know enough members or look at general play scores to know if this is happening. We have had quite a few exceptional scores this year though, it's a par 72, course rating 72.4 with a slope of 135 yet we have had a 49 in a texas scramble (they were getting 13 shots but the indexes of the 4 players were 7, 7, 26 and 30), 60 in better ball strokeplay, 48 and 46 points in weekend comps and a 46 in a Seniors Open BB stableford comp when it was blowing 40mph (I was in the bar when that one got read out after playing behind the comp and both me an my playing partner burst out laughing at it).

The fact the club have tried to introduce this new rule from next year would suggest there have been complaints or the handicap committee think something isn't as it should be.

This kind of thing happens so often in all walks

Rather than deal with the (any) offenders, they'd rather change the rules! Surely the former is easier to do and also shows the wider club 'audience' it wont be tolerated

 

[SteveJay]

From James Luke (Head of Handicapping & Course Rating at EG) in response to being presented with your club's email to members:

"This is NOT England Golf guidance. Please would you be able to let me know of the club and i will arrange a conversation to clarify the rules of handicapping.

You are NOT allowed to prevent the submission of general play scores."

But the club is not preventing the submission of GP scores, or doing anything contrary to the rules of handicapping. It's just insisting that to win/enter a certain competition, you must have a minimum number of qualifying scores from previous club competitions. Surely the entry criteria for a comp is entirely down to their discretion, nothing to do with EG.

An upcoming comp at my club has a maximum Handicap of 5. I can't enter. Should I go crying to EG about it? No, of course not.

 

[Imurg]

Demanding 15 of your last 20 to be comp scores is restricting someone putting GP cards in.

 

[doublebogey7]

But the club is not preventing the submission of GP scores, or doing anything contrary to the rules of handicapping. It's just insisting that to win/enter a certain competition, you must have a minimum number of qualifying scores from previous club competitions. Surely the entry criteria for a comp is entirely down to their discretion, nothing to do with EG.

An upcoming comp at my club has a maximum Handicap of 5. I can't enter. Should I go crying to EG about it? No, of course not.

Because that is not contravining any rules set by the body in charge of the handicapping system. If clubs wish to break the rules of WHS they should resign their affiliation of the governing body and set up their own.

Looks like the club in question here is going to face that choice pretty soon.

 

[Backache]

Sounds like some people don't want vanity handicappers in their elite level competitions but they don't think similar restrictions should be put in by clubs to stop sandbaggers.
Us low level oiks must do what were told by the great and good who introduced the idiocy that is WHS.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

As I said, it's my first year at the club so I've only heard mutterings in the bar from other members. I don't know enough members or look at general play scores to know if this is happening. We have had quite a few exceptional scores this year though, it's a par 72, course rating 72.4 with a slope of 135 yet we have had a 49 in a texas scramble (they were getting 13 shots but the indexes of the 4 players were 7, 7, 26 and 30), 60 in better ball strokeplay, 48 and 46 points in weekend comps and a 46 in a Seniors Open BB stableford comp when it was blowing 40mph (I was in the bar when that one got read out after playing behind the comp and both me an my playing partner burst out laughing at it).

The fact the club have tried to introduce this new rule from next year would suggest there have been complaints or the handicap committee think something isn't as it should be.

Don't get fooled by high points in Texas Scrambles, as the handicap allowance isn't designed to make 36 points meaning all four playing to their handicap, if your only scored 36 points in a fourball scramble you deserve to be stone last

 

[D-S]

Don't get fooled by high points in Texas Scrambles, as the handicap allowance isn't designed to make 36 points meaning all four playing to their handicap, if your only scored 36 points in a fourball scramble you deserve to be stone last

My assumption is that it is not a points score it is a net score, so 49 it pretty low.

 

[wjemather]

Sounds like some people don't want vanity handicappers in their elite level competitions but they don't think similar restrictions should be put in by clubs to stop sandbaggers.

They are not similar restrictions. One is evidence based, examining differences in gp and comp score differentials; the other is an arbitrary limit on gp scores with zero evidence to support it stopping sandbaggers.

 

[Backache]

They are not similar restrictions. One is evidence based, examining differences in gp and comp score differentials; the other is an arbitrary limit on gp scores with zero evidence to support it stopping sandbaggers.

So us Oiks are wrong that people are sandbagging through GP scores because the great and good tell us so, if this was not the case restricting GP scores should help stop sandbaggers. Doesn't guarantee stopping it but it makes it more difficult..

 

[3offTheTee]

My assumption is that it is not a points score it is a net score, so 49 it pretty low.

I would say 49 is extremely low. 54 is usually a winning score. Receiving 13 shots seems high. 10 roughly seems more realistic from the figures quoted.They probably had it worked out with the 2 7 handicappers taking as many drives as possible and have the distance and good short game. The high cappers just needed to get their drives in. Still a tremendous score.

 

[Severof]

A quick player search within 'My England Golf' will give you a full list of other players rounds at your club. I've seen very low single figure players shooting late 80's and 90's in March, then when the Season of events start, shooting mid 70's in comps with their inflated hcap. Difficult to prove, but 100% there are many players, so sad and lonely, desperate to win a plastic trophy and a club towel.