The Footie Thread

[fundy]

I was watching this article on BBC this morning.
Referee abuse: Hundreds tell of safety fears at grassroots level
Unless this issue is addressed at highest level, and the professional players are taught to respect the referee, then the situation will never improve.
I had work colleagues who were amateur football referees, and they said that the worst games they ever refereed where the junior games. More from the attitude of the parents on the side than the kids (although they copy what they see on telly).
Listening to one of the older referees, it seems like the governing bodies are trying to drive respect from the bottom up, but it needs to come from the top down. In reality, it needs to come at every level with zero tolerance for those who offend. Violence against an official cannot and must not be tolerated.
As someone who played and watches Rugby (both codes), I cannot understand why they can't take the model of how the players there respect the referee, and apply that to football. Sin binning for arguing with the referee, moving a ball 10 yards further to the goal for arguing, basically get the players to learn respect for the referee.
Nigel Owens was a master at managing the players.

Doesnt help when on a game like last night with in the first 5 minutes you see an international footballer tell the ref to F Off twice in succession and no action taken. And this happens in pretty much every televised game. Sadly theyve had many many years they could have clamped down on this but choose not to (along with plenty of other things)

Not holding my breath anything will change with the current powers that be

 

[Aztecs27]

You can very quickly get sucked back into it. Last season Leeds were well clear then went on a run of poor results.

Aye, which is precisely why I'm not counting any chickens just yet! Although, I'm pleased to be out of it for now...there was a time where things looked bleak when we were getting pumped by Leicester back in October; but since then Cooper's management style seems to have some into it's own with bedding in all of the new signings. Shelvey, Navas and Felipe all look like astute bits of business in the January window. Genuinely think Shelvey will start on Saturday and Felipe will start because he's one of 2 healthy Centrebacks we currently have.

 

[Fade and Die]

Ings isn't the player he was 3 seasons ago, they're in trouble for sure!

Honestly cannot understand why we got him in. We are not set up to play to his strengths at all, same reason that we look better with Antonio starting than Scammacca. Moyes expects his strikers to work hard up front on their own, chase the ball down relentlessly or chase the long ball and hold it until the midfield plods up.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Ings isn't the player he was 3 seasons ago, they're in trouble for sure!

Without being unkind to him, I like him as a player and for all the injuries he has been through, I hope you are right. For this season anyway

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Horse bolted a long time ago

Every now and then they try and clamp down on player behaviour, try and stop the swearing and surrounding the referee- the punish one player or team and then that’s it , they don’t continue it

It needs them to continue to punish players every game until the message gets into the players and the teams

There is far too much money floating around for them to do anything significant

 

[Bdill93]

Honestly cannot understand why we got him in. We are not set up to play to his strengths at all, same reason that we look better with Antonio starting than Scammacca. Moyes expects his strikers to work hard up front on their own, chase the ball down relentlessly or chase the long ball and hold it until the midfield plods up.

He's capable of doing it - but not for 90 mins at high intensity.

Surprisingly he was one of the best passing ST's I've seen, but, his hold up play was never as good as Ollie's and neither was his workrate.

If you had the luxury of being able to just leave him up front in the box he could still get plenty but people want more from their striker!

 

[Fade and Die]

He's capable of doing it - but not for 90 mins at high intensity.

Surprisingly he was one of the best passing ST's I've seen, but, his hold up play was never as good as Ollie's and neither was his workrate.

If you had the luxury of being able to just leave him up front in the box he could still get plenty but people want more from their striker!

I wish we did set up that way, when he was brought on as sub for Antonio against Everton, Bowen was pushed up front and Ings was in the supporting role

 

[Swango1980]

I was watching this article on BBC this morning.
Referee abuse: Hundreds tell of safety fears at grassroots level
Unless this issue is addressed at highest level, and the professional players are taught to respect the referee, then the situation will never improve.
I had work colleagues who were amateur football referees, and they said that the worst games they ever refereed where the junior games. More from the attitude of the parents on the side than the kids (although they copy what they see on telly).
Listening to one of the older referees, it seems like the governing bodies are trying to drive respect from the bottom up, but it needs to come from the top down. In reality, it needs to come at every level with zero tolerance for those who offend. Violence against an official cannot and must not be tolerated.
As someone who played and watches Rugby (both codes), I cannot understand why they can't take the model of how the players there respect the referee, and apply that to football. Sin binning for arguing with the referee, moving a ball 10 yards further to the goal for arguing, basically get the players to learn respect for the referee.
Nigel Owens was a master at managing the players.

I do enjoy watching Nigel Owens, very professional, charismatic and therefore respected by players as fans.

Footballers and Rugby players will never behave the same, they are just different by their very nature. A rugby player is, by the very essence of the game they play, likely to embrace the physical contact of the sport, and give as good as they get. If they suffer a foul (or believe they have), they'll never roll about like Bruno Fernandes. They'd be laughed at. Apart from a few notable exceptions, footballers just don't have that mindset naturally.

But, if we could watch and hear football referees make decisions, I think more respect would be given (assuming they can do so professionally). Allow them to stand up and represent themselves as an individual. We might actually respect them more by focusing more on the decisions we feel are correct, by seeing how they arrives at those decisions, rather than focusing on the times we think they got it wrong. We could see the abuse they get by players (at least initially), and how they deal with that. Every time they issue a yellow or red card, award a penalty or free kick or explain an offside decision, we will know exactly how they came to that decision. I think players would behave themselves a lot more, I don't think they want to be the one who is heard screaming at the ref all the time like a little child, and the world hearing exactly what they are saying. They may just become a bit more composed, or risk some funny memes being created at their expense.

 

[GB72]

I do enjoy watching Nigel Owens, very professional, charismatic and therefore respected by players as fans.

Footballers and Rugby players will never behave the same, they are just different by their very nature. A rugby player is, by the very essence of the game they play, likely to embrace the physical contact of the sport, and give as good as they get. If they suffer a foul (or believe they have), they'll never roll about like Bruno Fernandes. They'd be laughed at. Apart from a few notable exceptions, footballers just don't have that mindset naturally.

But, if we could watch and hear football referees make decisions, I think more respect would be given (assuming they can do so professionally). Allow them to stand up and represent themselves as an individual. We might actually respect them more by focusing more on the decisions we feel are correct, by seeing how they arrives at those decisions, rather than focusing on the times we think they got it wrong. We could see the abuse they get by players (at least initially), and how they deal with that. Every time they issue a yellow or red card, award a penalty or free kick or explain an offside decision, we will know exactly how they came to that decision. I think players would behave themselves a lot more, I don't think they want to be the one who is heard screaming at the ref all the time like a little child, and the world hearing exactly what they are saying. They may just become a bit more composed, or risk some funny memes being created at their expense.

Just guessing but I would have thought that the lack of mikes on the ref and linesman has a lot to do with TV now and the swearing and abuse from players and the crowd. That said, I do agree that the whining may stop if it were broadcast.

One factor that helps in rugby is that only the captain talks to the ref, everything is through the captain. You swarm the ref, you get penalised for it. Giving lip to the ref is a penalty offence in rugby and will see the existing decision reversed in favour of the opposition. Imagine if a football ref reversed a penalty decision and gave a free kick to the opposition because the team were mouthing off.

Not saying rugby is perfect, plenty of criticism of refs and video refs in crowds and on forums but not at the same level. At junior level, and even at grass roots level, I have just never experienced the issues that football refs have and most weeks the ref will stay for a few post match beers and some food with both teams.

 

[Swango1980]

Just guessing but I would have thought that the lack of mikes on the ref and linesman has a lot to do with TV now and the swearing and abuse from players and the crowd. That said, I do agree that the whining may stop if it were broadcast.

One factor that helps in rugby is that only the captain talks to the ref, everything is through the captain. You swarm the ref, you get penalised for it. Giving lip to the ref is a penalty offence in rugby and will see the existing decision reversed in favour of the opposition. Imagine if a football ref reversed a penalty decision and gave a free kick to the opposition because the team were mouthing off.

Not saying rugby is perfect, plenty of criticism of refs and video refs in crowds and on forums but not at the same level. At junior level, and even at grass roots level, I have just never experienced the issues that football refs have and most weeks the ref will stay for a few post match beers and some food with both teams.

I thought they were trialling putting mics on refs in football, can't remember the reference though.

Rugby players can probably swear just as much as footballers, I guess. As you said, if referees were given microphones and players were seen and heard on camera, I suspect swearing would be vastly reduced. The referees could choose to strongly penalise swearing to officials / other players, and have the video evidence to back them up. Authorities could add more fines / suspensions to players for bringing the game into disrepute, etc.

No issue with refs wanting to talk to any player. But, it should be on the referees terms. If a player approaches them in a calm and inquisitive manner, fair enough. It is a good way to show how players and referees can communicate with respect and professionally. If a player charges the ref down, shouting and screaming, ref can immediately call in the captain, and explain that behaviour is unacceptable. Happens again, instant yellow to that player, and then end up calmly explaining to that player why the decision was made.

In many respects, it could work really well. Although, I am assuming football referees would have the same demeanour as Nigel Owens. On the flip side, if any referees are extremely dislikeable people, for whatever reason, maybe it could backfire? People used to say Mike Dean was all about himself? maybe completely untrue if you new him personally? However, if he acted and sounded like he was extremely arrogant, that might anger people even more? I suspect the trick is to be firm and confident with your decisions, but have some empathy when a subjective decision is made

 

[GB72]

I thought they were trialling putting mics on refs in football, can't remember the reference though.

Rugby players can probably swear just as much as footballers, I guess. As you said, if referees were given microphones and players were seen and heard on camera, I suspect swearing would be vastly reduced. The referees could choose to strongly penalise swearing to officials / other players, and have the video evidence to back them up. Authorities could add more fines / suspensions to players for bringing the game into disrepute, etc.

No issue with refs wanting to talk to any player. But, it should be on the referees terms. If a player approaches them in a calm and inquisitive manner, fair enough. It is a good way to show how players and referees can communicate with respect and professionally. If a player charges the ref down, shouting and screaming, ref can immediately call in the captain, and explain that behaviour is unacceptable. Happens again, instant yellow to that player, and then end up calmly explaining to that player why the decision was made.

In many respects, it could work really well. Although, I am assuming football referees would have the same demeanour as Nigel Owens. On the flip side, if any referees are extremely dislikeable people, for whatever reason, maybe it could backfire? People used to say Mike Dean was all about himself? maybe completely untrue if you new him personally? However, if he acted and sounded like he was extremely arrogant, that might anger people even more? I suspect the trick is to be firm and confident with your decisions, but have some empathy when a subjective decision is made

It is an interesting one, it is within the realms of realism that the football authorities could sort this at a professional level at least. The trouble is 2 things, there would be carnage to begin with and I am not sure that the fans want it.

With regards the carnage, you are going to see a lot of cards that could influence matches if you start giving away free kicks, reversing decisions and giving red or yellow cards for foul language or crowding or challenging the ref. That knocks on to part 2, as to whethe the fans want it. Imagine the calls to 606 or talksport if a team went down to 10 or 9 men for swearing and their attitude to the ref and then lost an important match and had players suspended for more important matches. It would be a non stop line of calls about it being ridiculous, I can see the term woke being mentioned and how is a man's game, usual rubbish and then the pundits will get behind that and all the calls about treating refs with respect will be forgotten.

As for Nigel Owens, a bit of a one off but that respect is shown to all refs because if you do not, you get a penalty awarded against you and if you keep going you get marched back 10 yards each time.

 

[Robster59]

There was an initiative back in 2016 to respect the referee more, and for the players not to surround the ref. Another one that has gone away.
And if there is an initial kickback with players getting booked, sent-off, suspended, etc. then fine, let it be. They'll stop quickly enough and learn their lesson. Without suitable punishment, and rigorous enforecement, nothing will happen.
And they do need the support of all the pundits on TV. They have to also make it clear that respect for the referee is paramount, and, as at the weekend when Mario Lemina had been dismissed with a second yellow card for dissent, they should have backed the referee for his decision, as it was correct under the rules, rather than criticising him.
Or do we have to wait for someone to be seriously injured or even killed before somebody takes any meaningful action?

 

[Swango1980]

It is an interesting one, it is within the realms of realism that the football authorities could sort this at a professional level at least. The trouble is 2 things, there would be carnage to begin with and I am not sure that the fans want it.

With regards the carnage, you are going to see a lot of cards that could influence matches if you start giving away free kicks, reversing decisions and giving red or yellow cards for foul language or crowding or challenging the ref. That knocks on to part 2, as to whethe the fans want it. Imagine the calls to 606 or talksport if a team went down to 10 or 9 men for swearing and their attitude to the ref and then lost an important match and had players suspended for more important matches. It would be a non stop line of calls about it being ridiculous, I can see the term woke being mentioned and how is a man's game, usual rubbish and then the pundits will get behind that and all the calls about treating refs with respect will be forgotten.

As for Nigel Owens, a bit of a one off but that respect is shown to all refs because if you do not, you get a penalty awarded against you and if you keep going you get marched back 10 yards each time.

Certain things would need to be treated with caution. Perhaps not an immediate yellow if a player let a swear word slip. But, backed up with certain disciplinary procedures outside the game, if certain players have been caught swearing.

I'm sure fans would love to hear the decision making by referees, compared to now where it is often "why on earth did he give that?". For example, I mentioned a couple of yellow card decisions (including the one that led to a Wolves red), where the yellow looked completely random, and therefore harsh. And, maybe it was. However, if for example, the player had been hounding the ref previously, and we all heard the ref say "look son, I am the referee and I give what I see, if you come running after me again like that, I'll give you a yellow", then we'd all know exactly why the yellow was given the next time. Or, if we heard the player shouting and swearing, and the ref saying "you've crossed the line there, I'm booking you", then again I think we'd understand it, while it would also make Neves statement that the ref just booked the player as he was the 3rd person meaningless.

I think it would perhaps give the on field referee more "power" during a VAR review. Currently, if he is asked to review, I suspect he is under pressure to reverse his decision, because all the world, players and managers see is he is being called over as the VAR, who has multiple cameras and lots of time to look at something, thinks he has made a wrong decision. Big call for the onfield ref to stick with his on field decision, as the optics make it look like he backs his initial decision and saying his mate in the studio is mistaken. Whereas, if we heard the VAR and ref chat, the VAR may be more like "this player raised his hands, I'm not sure it is a red card, but you may want to have a quick look at it to make sure you are happy". The ref could then have a look, and he is more open to decide either way, as the VAR is simply saying it is worth a look, but not 100% a red in their own view.

 

[GB72]

Certain things would need to be treated with caution. Perhaps not an immediate yellow if a player let a swear word slip. But, backed up with certain disciplinary procedures outside the game, if certain players have been caught swearing.

I'm sure fans would love to hear the decision making by referees, compared to now where it is often "why on earth did he give that?". For example, I mentioned a couple of yellow card decisions (including the one that led to a Wolves red), where the yellow looked completely random, and therefore harsh. And, maybe it was. However, if for example, the player had been hounding the ref previously, and we all heard the ref say "look son, I am the referee and I give what I see, if you come running after me again like that, I'll give you a yellow", then we'd all know exactly why the yellow was given the next time. Or, if we heard the player shouting and swearing, and the ref saying "you've crossed the line there, I'm booking you", then again I think we'd understand it, while it would also make Neves statement that the ref just booked the player as he was the 3rd person meaningless.

I think it would perhaps give the on field referee more "power" during a VAR review. Currently, if he is asked to review, I suspect he is under pressure to reverse his decision, because all the world, players and managers see is he is being called over as the VAR, who has multiple cameras and lots of time to look at something, thinks he has made a wrong decision. Big call for the onfield ref to stick with his on field decision, as the optics make it look like he backs his initial decision and saying his mate in the studio is mistaken. Whereas, if we heard the VAR and ref chat, the VAR may be more like "this player raised his hands, I'm not sure it is a red card, but you may want to have a quick look at it to make sure you are happy". The ref could then have a look, and he is more open to decide either way, as the VAR is simply saying it is worth a look, but not 100% a red in their own view.

Certainly not looking at cards for swearing but swearing at the ref is more what I was looking at.

Another useful thing in rugby (may not work in football due to less natural stoppages) is that the ref will give captains a warning for the team. 'There has been too much lip and backchat, next one to speak out of turn gets a yellow etc' puts teams on notice to behave.

Totally agree that VAR Chat is important. Again, and not saying rugby gets everything right, but the video ref is a tool that the ref can use or not use as much as they like. They need to ask for bits to be looked at so, goal scored, ref can ask if it is offside, if there was a foul etc. The important thing is the question so, in football, the ref may ask 'penalty, yes or no' and that asks for the vide ref to help make a decision. If the ref asks 'Is there any reason why I should not give a penalty' the penalty is given and the video ref knows ot only look for obvious and clear reasons why it was not a foul. The question and the conversation is important. You get it all through the match. The Video ref often pops up in the refs ear for example tosay 'Possible foul play by whovever, checking it now' the game will go on and you will then hear the findings and play can be called back.

 

[doublebogey7]

Having coached and watched hundreds of youth football matches. I don’t think it’s kids copying what they see on TV. They are copying the behaviour of their coaches and parents.

There might be a grain of truth in that, in which case who are the coaches and parents learning their behaviour from. I listended to a grass roots referee this morning, recounting a player of twelve years of age kissing his wedding finger, not sure he learnt that from the coaches.

 

[GB72]

There might be a grain of truth in that, in which case who are the coaches and parents learning their behaviour from. I listended to a grass roots referee this morning, recounting a player of twelve years of age kissing his wedding finger, not sure he learnt that from the coaches.

Certainly at junior level for rugby, the coaches and senior players policy the touchlines during matches and short shrift is given to parents who get out of order. They are reminded that they are kids and youths doing their best. Quite a few parents had an unrealistic view of rugby when their kids first started. They thought you encouraged kids to batter the opponent and gave grief to the opposition. They were soon corrected that at most levels of rugby, you boo and cheer but you also applaud good play from the opposition and violence is a by product of the game and not an aim in itself.

It does help that the size and build of 20-30 rugby players on the touchline means that encouraging less agressive behaviour from parents it somewhat easier.

 

[doublebogey7]

I do enjoy watching Nigel Owens, very professional, charismatic and therefore respected by players as fans.

Footballers and Rugby players will never behave the same, they are just different by their very nature. A rugby player is, by the very essence of the game they play, likely to embrace the physical contact of the sport, and give as good as they get. If they suffer a foul (or believe they have), they'll never roll about like Bruno Fernandes. They'd be laughed at. Apart from a few notable exceptions, footballers just don't have that mindset naturally.

But, if we could watch and hear football referees make decisions, I think more respect would be given (assuming they can do so professionally). Allow them to stand up and represent themselves as an individual. We might actually respect them more by focusing more on the decisions we feel are correct, by seeing how they arrives at those decisions, rather than focusing on the times we think they got it wrong. We could see the abuse they get by players (at least initially), and how they deal with that. Every time they issue a yellow or red card, award a penalty or free kick or explain an offside decision, we will know exactly how they came to that decision. I think players would behave themselves a lot more, I don't think they want to be the one who is heard screaming at the ref all the time like a little child, and the world hearing exactly what they are saying. They may just become a bit more composed, or risk some funny memes being created at their expense.

Sorry but they are not, they were all born as humans beings with all of their failings. This is learned behavious nothing more nothing less, and the football authorites need to start to tackle it soon or there is a great danger football at grass roots will die due to the lack of people wishing to referee.

We had a bried discussion on refereeing decisions the other day and I was going to come to you, but now maybe is the time. Referee's will not improve at the top level unless we get sufficient number of people, some of whom need to have played the game at some level (doesn't need to be full proffesional) wishing to get involved. That will not happen until people can feel safe in the knowledge that they will have the backing of the authorities when they instigate some form of disciplinary process, particularly for the indimidation of officials, at all levels. These things have been tried before before pundits, and the authorities start to complain that matches are devoid of their star players due to the increased number odf suspensions and sendings off. I have no faith in that happening as the big money players have way too much power. Mikeing up may be worth a try thpough it would need to be backed up by more punitive measures.

 

[GB72]

Sorry but they are not, they were all born as humans beings with all of their failings. This is learned behavious nothing more nothing less, and the football authorites need to start to tackle it soon or there is a great danger football at grass roots will die due to the lack of people wishing to referee.

We had a bried discussion on refereeing decisions the other day and I was going to come to you, but now maybe is the time. Referee's will not improve at the top level unless we get sufficient number of people, some of whom need to have played the game at some level (doesn't need to be full proffesional) wishing to get involved. That will not happen until people can feel safe in the knowledge that they will have the backing of the authorities when they instigate some form of disciplinary process, particularly for the indimidation of officials, at all levels. These things have been tried before before pundits, and the authorities start to complain that matches are devoid of their star players due to the increased number odf suspensions and sendings off. I have no faith in that happening as the big money players have way too much power. Mikeing up may be worth a try thpough it would need to be backed up by more punitive measures.

What bugs me is that if there is trouble, the stock response is that they are 'not real football fans'. Yes they are, they go to football matches, they support a team, they are football fans and the authorities need to take ownership of that at all levels and deal with it rather than keep ignoring it.

 

[Neilds]

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that footballers and football referees should act more like their rugby counterparts, part of the problem is the type of punishments available. In rugby, Give away a foul in your defensive third (and sometimes in your own half) and you can almost guarantee that you will have points scored against you. Unless they start giving penalties for every offence in football then the punishment is almost meaningless. They even tried the 10 yards thing a few years ago but it stayed as a free kick, even if you were 2 yards out and nothing came of the free lick as the whole opposition was on the goal line.

 

[doublebogey7]

Certainly at junior level for rugby, the coaches and senior players policy the touchlines during matches and short shrift is given to parents who get out of order. They are reminded that they are kids and youths doing their best. Quite a few parents had an unrealistic view of rugby when their kids first started. They thought you encouraged kids to batter the opponent and gave grief to the opposition. They were soon corrected that at most levels of rugby, you boo and cheer but you also applaud good play from the opposition and violence is a by product of the game and not an aim in itself.

It does help that the size and build of 20-30 rugby players on the touchline means that encouraging less agressive behaviour from parents it somewhat easier.

I believe they have been trying something similar in Football at Junior/Youth level, but for me tackling it bottom to top is completly the wrong order of things.