The Footie Thread

[PJ87]

Wasn't the evidence the video that she put online? I can't remember what exactly it was however the police line is that "key witnesses have withdrawn and new material that came to light meant there was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction." Obviously you can read into this any number of ways however it obviously wasn't as cut and dried as people thought.

Shows how rubbish our legal system is

Photos, screenshots and voice notes not enough evidence

 

[Swango1980]

The way of the world now is a great deal will be down to sponsors. If the big Utd sponsors, especially those relating to kit and clothing, do not want him seen in their gear, he will not play irrespective of the intentions of the club.

Not commenting on guilt, innocence of anything else but if the sponsors see it as bad PR and threaten to pull the plug, that is it.

True in many respects. The big thing for Utd, or any team, is trying to ensure you have a really good and unified team spirit. None of us know how "guilty" Greenwood actually is, as it hasn't gone through court. We'll never truly know the context of what was put in the public domain. Why the charges were dropped, who knows. But, many, if not most of the public have already made up their minds. If many of us had to bet our houses on whether he was guilty or not (and somehow we'd get the definitive answer), I think the vast majority of us would say guilty. This is the problem with trial by media, because sometimes, maybe only occasionally, the truth isn't exactly how it was dressed up to be.

But, Greenwood has that firmly attached to him now. Even if he is the most delightful chap in training, and does loads for charity in the future, there will be plenty of toxic criticism of him from many quarters, even groups outside of football. Sponsors will shy away. Doesn't matter what they think privately, they simply don't think it is a good idea to be so closely associated with Greenwood and the damage that would cause their own brand.

So, it is really really difficult to see Greenwood have a future at Man Utd. Maybe he does, but I think it would be a remarkable turnaround. I suspect he'll need to leave the limelight of the PL, maybe go down a division or two. Maybe go abroad. With the potential he had, if he still has it, he could be a mighty player for a lesser side, and maybe win fans on board by what he does on the pitch. If he does really really well, maybe he can climb the ladder to some extent.

 

[PJ87]

True in many respects. The big thing for Utd, or any team, is trying to ensure you have a really good and unified team spirit. None of us know how "guilty" Greenwood actually is, as it hasn't gone through court. We'll never truly know the context of what was put in the public domain. Why the charges were dropped, who knows. But, many, if not most of the public have already made up their minds. If many of us had to bet our houses on whether he was guilty or not (and somehow we'd get the definitive answer), I think the vast majority of us would say guilty. This is the problem with trial by media, because sometimes, maybe only occasionally, the truth isn't exactly how it was dressed up to be.

But, Greenwood has that firmly attached to him now. Even if he is the most delightful chap in training, and does loads for charity in the future, there will be plenty of toxic criticism of him from many quarters, even groups outside of football. Sponsors will shy away. Doesn't matter what they think privately, they simply don't think it is a good idea to be so closely associated with Greenwood and the damage that would cause their own brand.

So, it is really really difficult to see Greenwood have a future at Man Utd. Maybe he does, but I think it would be a remarkable turnaround. I suspect he'll need to leave the limelight of the PL, maybe go down a division or two. Maybe go abroad. With the potential he had, if he still has it, he could be a mighty player for a lesser side, and maybe win fans on board by what he does on the pitch. If he does really really well, maybe he can climb the ladder to some extent.

I've read they are back together which is why she has dropped it ..

Just re-enforces to greenwood he can behave how he wants he has a lot of money

Interested to see what United do

 

[GB72]

Shows how rubbish our legal system is

Photos, screenshots and voice notes not enough evidence

From some of what I read, and it may be absolute rubbish, it was the alleged victim who wanted to withdraw the complaint. Whilst not impossible, it is pretty hard to prosecute and convince a jury if the alleged victim was not on board. Wording here is important, the use of not a reaslistic chance of a siccessful conviction is actually a pretty damning phrase as the implication is very much that they think there is a case to answer but circumstances have meant that the proof beyond reasonable doubt would be difficult.

 

[Swango1980]

Shows how rubbish our legal system is

Photos, screenshots and voice notes not enough evidence

We don't know what has happened behind the scenes. We only know what was released in the public, and how that information was portrayed by the press. Sure, I agree, it was pretty damning. But, if determining whether someone is guilty or not was as easy as seeing / hearing some pieces of evidence, and reading an article or two on them, and then making a judgement, then our justice system would be a piece of cake. Forget the months and months of gathering evidence, and paying for expert legal teams. Just read the Sun, and then make the decision.

Just reading what was said on BBC. It looks like key witnesses withdrew from the process, and new material came to light that meant there was no realistic prospect of conviction. Goodness knows what that new material is, or why key witnesses withdrew? I'd imagine if the new material completely transforms the picture, Greenwood will need to get that out there, as he will desperately need to mend his public image. Or, is it just a technicality?

 

[Swango1980]

From some of what I read, and it may be absolute rubbish, it was the alleged victim who wanted to withdraw the complaint. Whilst not impossible, it is pretty hard to prosecute and convince a jury if the alleged victim was not on board. Wording here is important, the use of not a reaslistic chance of a siccessful conviction is actually a pretty damning phrase as the implication is very much that they think there is a case to answer but circumstances have meant that the proof beyond reasonable doubt would be difficult.

I'm not sure. That could be dressed up however way anyone likes.

When a case falls apart, even if new evidence pretty much shows the charged person is innocent, they use similar wording. I've never heard "charges against so and so have been dropped, because new evidence suggests they are completely innocent". That would be a PR disaster, especially in this case. If the courts said that, it would probably be seen as a massive set back for womens rights groups and those fighting against domestic abuse. Scare proper victims from speaking out, as they will feel people are calling them liars.

And, I'm not saying that Greenwood is innocent. I'm just saying the words I've read from the Crown Prosecution Service don't give any indication on how guilty or innocent he may be. They are just giving a factual statement that charges were dropped, as prosecution was unlikely, without telling us exactly why. Just that key witnesses withdrew, and there was new material that we, the public, have apparently not seen.

 

[GB72]

I'm not sure. That could be dressed up however way anyone likes.

When a case falls apart, even if new evidence pretty much shows the charged person is innocent, they use similar wording. I've never heard "charges against so and so have been dropped, because new evidence suggests they are completely innocent". That would be a PR disaster, especially in this case. If the courts said that, it would probably be seen as a massive set back for womens rights groups and those fighting against domestic abuse. Scare proper victims from speaking out, as they will feel people are calling them liars.

And, I'm not saying that Greenwood is innocent. I'm just saying the words I've read from the Crown Prosecution Service don't give any indication on how guilty or innocent he may be. They are just giving a factual statement that charges were dropped, as prosecution was unlikely, without telling us exactly why. Just that key witnesses withdrew, and there was new material that we, the public, have apparently not seen.

Thing is, if it does not go to court, you are highly unlikely to see evidence prepared for a criminal trial. Now, if there is evidence that fully exhonerates then the accused may well produce that but I suspect that will not happen.

The mention of key witnesses withdrawing is information given above and beyond what is normally said. With a court date already set for this case, the clear inference was that there was sufficient evidence until these withdrawals. Also comments such as 'under a duty to stop the case' and other language used in legalese indicates reticence to take the action they have had to but were given no choice.

Again. this is just my interpretation.

 

[Pin-seeker]

The recording of make makes him guilty & a piece of imo.

 

[Swango1980]

Varane has retired from international football, at the age of 29. Pretty young, but happy enough if it helps him stay fit more often.

 

[Billysboots]

From some of what I read, and it may be absolute rubbish, it was the alleged victim who wanted to withdraw the complaint. Whilst not impossible, it is pretty hard to prosecute and convince a jury if the alleged victim was not on board. Wording here is important, the use of not a reaslistic chance of a siccessful conviction is actually a pretty damning phrase as the implication is very much that they think there is a case to answer but circumstances have meant that the proof beyond reasonable doubt would be difficult.

It is possible to pursue what is referred to as a victimless prosecution. It is something I did myself many, many times, especially in cases involving domestic violence. But to be successful requires considerable sources of independent evidence if the victim themselves do not wish to become involved.

There seem to be plenty here who are happy to criticise the judicial system in the UK, however, you have hit the nail squarely on the head. The burden of proof in criminal cases in this country rests with the prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that a defendant is guilty. It is not for the defence to prove anything.

Videos, audio tapes and so on can only tell a jury so much. Reading between the lines, and frankly it doesn’t take much, the alleged victim here withdrew her support. And, far from exhibiting a broken judicial system, at least the underpinning element of innocent until PROVEN guilty still remains, regardless of how that may appear. If there is no realistic prospect of a conviction then there is little to be gained by spending a huge amount of public money in pursuing this through the courts.

Whether Greenwood manages to resurrect his career is another matter entirely.

 

[Billysboots]

The recording of make makes him guilty & a piece of imo.

Then we can all only hope and pray you are never called up to do jury service

 

[Pin-seeker]

Then we can all only hope and pray you are never called up to do jury service

So what’s your thoughts on the recording & the girl’s injuries?

 

[GB72]

It is possible to pursue what is referred to as a victimless prosecution. It is something I did myself many, many times, especially in cases involving domestic violence. But to be successful requires considerable sources of independent evidence if the victim themselves do not wish to become involved.

There seem to be plenty here who are happy to criticise the judicial system in the UK, however, you have hit the nail squarely on the head. The burden of proof in criminal cases in this country rests with the prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that a defendant is guilty. It is not for the defence to prove anything.

Videos, audio tapes and so on can only tell a jury so much. Reading between the lines, and frankly it doesn’t take much, the alleged victim here withdrew her support. And, far from exhibiting a broken judicial system, at least the underpinning element of innocent until PROVEN guilty still remains, regardless of how that may appear. If there is no realistic prospect of a conviction then there is little to be gained by spending a huge amount of public money in pursuing this through the courts.

Whether Greenwood manages to resurrect his career is another matter entirely.

Exactly, not impossible to prosecute but damned difficult especially if the alleged victim is not on side. Thumbs up if you manageed to get any of your victimless cases across the line as well.

Do you read it the same as I do, they had is all lined up for court, date set and the victim and, I suspect, people associated with her pulled the plug on their evidence. Read and seen enough CPS statements to know that has come from someone pretty hacked of about what they are having to do.

 

[GB72]

So what’s your thoughts on the recording & the girl’s injuries?

She could say it was an accident, a misunderstandng, she posted them in the heat of the moment and it was not what it looked like. All sorts of things that are enough to sway a jury into being uncertain. If the alleged victim and others then give evidence in support of the defendent then you are on a pretty sticky wicket convincing a jury that a person is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

 

[Billysboots]

So what’s your thoughts on the recording & the girl’s injuries?

I have no idea because, like you, I haven’t been presented with all the evidence. If you honestly expect me to comment on someone’s guilt or otherwise based on what has been leaked via social media then you are going to have a very long wait.

Greenwood may be as guilty as sin. But it hasn’t been legally proven, and as the matter now won’t be presented to the courts I would suggest the debate perhaps needs to be nipped in the bud here and now. This forum is in the public domain, after all.

 

[Pin-seeker]

She could say it was an accident, a misunderstandng, she posted them in the heat of the moment and it was not what it looked like. All sorts of things that are enough to sway a jury into being uncertain. If the alleged victim and others then give evidence in support of the defendent then you are on a pretty sticky wicket convincing a jury that a person is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

I get that,but that doesn’t make him innocent for me.

 

[GB72]

I get that,but that doesn’t make him innocent for me.

Nothing makes him innocent or guilty just not enough to take it to court

 

[Billysboots]

She could say it was an accident, a misunderstandng, she posted them in the heat of the moment and it was not what it looked like. All sorts of things that are enough to sway a jury into being uncertain. If the alleged victim and others then give evidence in support of the defendent then you are on a pretty sticky wicket convincing a jury that a person is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

In the absence of a compliant victim a defendant can offer a plausible explanation to the court which, without a victim willing to say otherwise, the prosecution cannot counter. Immediately there is reasonable doubt, and there ends your realistic prospect of a conviction. It really is that simple.

 

[Pin-seeker]

I have no idea because, like you, I haven’t been presented with all the evidence. If you honestly expect me to comment on someone’s guilt or otherwise based on what has been leaked via social media then you are going to have a very long wait.

Greenwood may be as guilty as sin. But it hasn’t been legally proven, and as the matter now won’t be presented to the courts I would suggest the debate perhaps needs to be nipped in the bud here and now. This forum is in the public domain, after all.

The recording alone is enough for me to think he’s a piece of that isn’t use to having no said to him.
Not sure what happens with his career,but the opposition fans are going to crucify him.

 

[Billysboots]

The recording alone is enough for me to think he’s a piece of that isn’t use to having no said to him.
Not sure what happens with his career,but the opposition fans are going to crucify him.

I certainly agree his life on a football pitch, at least in this country, will not be worth living.

I’d love to have a definitive view on this but past experience tells me it would be unwise, especially if I am basing that view on only part of the available evidence.