Have you ever played with a known handicap cheat?

[Sports_Fanatic]

It depends. My mate won his first club championship when he played off around 13 or 14. His first round was level par (1 over SSS). He had a genuine earned handicap before the club champs, and maybe been a member for a year or two. He is a naturally sporty guy, and he would have started to play and practice a bit more in the weeks leading up to the Club Champs, like a lot of players do. So, the Club Champs along with the practice just lead to him refining his game, and ultimately led to him beginning the process of falling towards a handicap of low single figures (think his best was 4 or 5).

So, just because someone shoots nett 10 under, it is probably fair to say, doesn't automatically categorise them as a handicap cheat (as per the thread title). They could just have a genuine reason to have significant improvement, coupled with a round that went extremely well for them in terms of luck.

Perhaps i'm miss judging how hard it is, but i would have thought someone playing off 4/5 over 5 years (so true 4/5 handicap) will have shot a 69 at some point. I mean it's 7 or 8 under but i still would have thought it happens as they've got the ability to par every hole if they get on a run and manage to keep it together mentally.

 

[Billysboots]

Did anyone see the Twitter post from Joel Tadman about his participation in his Club Champs last weekend. He didn't draw attention to it to be fair but he put up some pictures of the leaderboard after day 1 and 2.

After day 1 a 10 handicap was sitting 3rd with a level par gross 70 followed up by a 5 over par gross 75 on day 2. he finished 3rd overall and every other player around him in the top 13 were 5 handicap or below.

I don't know the full circumstances of course, but even if the lad had been having lessons or in a bit of good form, a genuine 10 handicap shouldn't be shooting those kind of scores in my opinion, even more so on back to back days and with a club champs set up. Ridiculous.

I disagree. A 10 handicap golfer, by definition, is no mug. Capable of pars at every hole, birdies at most. And if it all comes together they are well capable of good scores. My best knock of one over gross off our back tees came when I was off 11 - everything clicked.

The best round I have ever seen first hand was a seven under gross by a mate playing off 4. Statistically better, as he played eleven better than his handicap. Nobody moaned about that.

We all need to accept that, once a golfer is around a single figure handicap, really good scores are no longer impossible. It’s one of the reasons I no longer play our Club Championship. 8 handicap and below play both their rounds on a Saturday for the gross winner, everyone else has to give up their entire weekend and play both days. Worse still, they announce the new Club Champion on the Saturday evening, despite maintaining their stance that every entrant, including those off 9 and above, are playing for the title. It’s elitist, and irritating because, as a 9 handicap, I am as capable of shooting as low as most of those playing both rounds on the Saturday. I, and many others I know of a similar standard, object to being treated like an afterthought.

 

[Voyager EMH]

As a teenager in the 1970s I got my handicap down from 18 to 10 in one year. As I had not played to 10 or below three times in the year I was given a shot back to 11.
The following year was O-Levels and I did not play comps in May and June.
Then I won my club's Boys Championship by 3 shots with a gross 74 (nett 63 on a par 69 got cut to 8).
Four days later I won a men's board comp with 69 - 8 = 61. (got cut to 5)
Those remain the best two consecutive nett scores in my life. And 8-under par nett is the best ever nett score.
There are improving golfers out there. It is a fact.
I spent 5 days as a bandit.
Never been one again.

 

[Biggleswade Blue]

Did anyone see the Twitter post from Joel Tadman about his participation in his Club Champs last weekend. He didn't draw attention to it to be fair but he put up some pictures of the leaderboard after day 1 and 2.

After day 1 a 10 handicap was sitting 3rd with a level par gross 70 followed up by a 5 over par gross 75 on day 2. he finished 3rd overall and every other player around him in the top 13 were 5 handicap or below.

I don't know the full circumstances of course, but even if the lad had been having lessons or in a bit of good form, a genuine 10 handicap shouldn't be shooting those kind of scores in my opinion, even more so on back to back days and with a club champs set up. Ridiculous.

Why ridiculous? Happy to say it's unlikley, but ridiculous in what way?

A person's handicap is genuine if they follow the handicapping rules. We may not like that rugby gives 3 points for a penalty and 7 for a converted try, but that's the rules of the game and we choose to play by them. You can't complain afterwards that your try was better than their three penalties.

If they then have the round of their life, or a great day or even a few great days then we should congratulate them, not take the gloss off by implying they are cheating. Especially when it is someone we don't know and can't know their situation. A few great days and their handicap will come down anyway. all of us are only 8 rounds away from scratch! Isn't that the point of playing?

It is horrid to be on the receiving end of such comments and they discourage people from playing and entering competitions.

It is all too common for people to be told their handicap is too high, criticised when they play well in competitions to bring it down, and criticised if they stick to general play rounds to try and bring it down with just an occasional competition. "Not having lessons" seems to be a badge of honour amongst some, and practicing, and even warming up, appears to be regarded by some as cheating.

If someone else wants to win the vice captain's midweek stableford so much that they are going to go to all that effort to cheat the system, then as far as I'm concerned, leave them to it. Most people don't even understand WHS, let alone have worked out how to cheat it.

If I lose a match, or finish down the leaderboard in a comp where someone has had a great round, better than handicap, then well done them. If they've cheated that's a refelction of them, not me, and for them to live with. I don't think most people do.

I am sure it's frustrating for good golfers with low handicaps seeing 10 under handicap win a handicap comps, and so may choose not to play in them. High handicap golfers won't win scratch comps, and so won't play in them. In team competitions if you are a low handicap player, why not approach some of the less experienced high handicap players and offer to pair up? It could make the day more interesting for both.

 

[Billysboots]

Why ridiculous? Happy to say it's unlikley, but ridiculous in what way?

A person's handicap is genuine if they follow the handicapping rules. We may not like that rugby gives 3 points for a penalty and 7 for a converted try, but that's the rules of the game and we choose to play by them. You can't complain afterwards that your try was better than their three penalties.

If they then have the round of their life, or a great day or even a few great days then we should congratulate them, not take the gloss off by implying they are cheating. Especially when it is someone we don't know and can't know their situation. A few great days and their handicap will come down anyway. all of us are only 8 rounds away from scratch! Isn't that the point of playing?

It is horrid to be on the receiving end of such comments and they discourage people from playing and entering competitions.

It is all too common for people to be told their handicap is too high, criticised when they play well in competitions to bring it down, and criticised if they stick to general play rounds to try and bring it down with just an occasional competition. "Not having lessons" seems to be a badge of honour amongst some, and practicing, and even warming up, appears to be regarded by some as cheating.

If someone else wants to win the vice captain's midweek stableford so much that they are going to go to all that effort to cheat the system, then as far as I'm concerned, leave them to it. Most people don't even understand WHS, let alone have worked out how to cheat it.

If I lose a match, or finish own the leaderboard in a comp where someone has had a great round, better than handicap, then well done them. If they've cheated that's a refelction of them, not me, and for them to live with. I don't think most people do.

I am sure it's frustrating for good golfers with low handicaps seeing 10 under handicap win a handicap comps, and so may choose not to play in them. High handicap golfers won't win scratch comps, and so won't play in them. In team competitions if you are a low handicap player, why not approach some of the less experienced high handicap players and offer to pair up? It could make the day more interesting for both.

Spot on.

I recall several years ago playing in our summer handicap knockout. The clue is in there - the word handicap. I was off 16 at the time and had been drawn against an 8 handicap who I didn’t know. Several people warned me beforehand he was a grumpy pillock.

Front nine I played really, really well. My opponent barely spoke from the 5th, his mood getting more aggressive and obnoxious by the minute, clearly unhappy with the way I was playing, and by the turn he had steam coming from his ears.

I asked him what was troubling him, already knowing the answer. What a pity he didn’t consider the state of the match before he blurted out “You’re a bandit” (with expletives which are banned from this forum included). I stared him dead in the eye and said “If I’m a bandit so are you. We’re all square.” He simply didn’t get it - we were playing a handicap match, and if we were all square with me playing well under my handicap it followed he must be doing likewise.

We played the back nine in uncomfortable silence, and I won at the 19th. He stormed off, no word, no handshake, nothing. I’d played to about 9, him to about 2 or 3. He simply couldn’t accept a higher handicap golfer playing within themselves, although he also had.

I’ve never been so pleased to win a knockout. Never saw my opponent again, as he moved clubs later that year. No doubt he’s being grumpy elsewhere.

 

[Mandofred]

Spot on.

I recall several years ago playing in our summer handicap knockout. The clue is in there - the word handicap. I was off 16 at the time and had been drawn against an 8 handicap who I didn’t know. Several people warned me beforehand he was a grumpy pillock.

Front nine I played really, really well. My opponent barely spoke from the 5th, his mood getting more aggressive and obnoxious by the minute, clearly unhappy with the way I was playing, and by the turn he had steam coming from his ears.

I asked him what was troubling him, already knowing the answer. What a pity he didn’t consider the state of the match before he blurted out “You’re a bandit” (with expletives which are banned from this forum included). I stared him dead in the eye and said “If I’m a bandit so are you. We’re all square.” He simply didn’t get it - we were playing a handicap match, and if we were all square with me playing well under my handicap it followed he must be doing likewise.

We played the back nine in uncomfortable silence, and I won at the 19th. He stormed off, no word, no handshake, nothing. I’d played to about 9, him to about 2 or 3. He simply couldn’t accept a higher handicap golfer playing within themselves, although he also had.

I’ve never been so pleased to win a knockout. Never saw my opponent again, as he moved clubs later that year. No doubt he’s being grumpy elsewhere.

This is why I stay away from matchplay. If I was in that situation (being called a bandit), I would have just told him he could have the match and walked off. I can make myself miserable on a golf course....I don't need somebody else to do it for me.

 

[Wilson]

Being put in a weird spot by someone who frequently asks to play with me.

He is messaging me to boast that his handicap is coming down quickly and that he’ll catch me up soon.

However, he has come down due to supplementary cards - ultimately not my concern, but one of those cards was on a day that he played with me in 3 ball.
I know that he wasn’t “handing in a card” and has only done it as he obviously added up the score afterwards and realised it was better than his worst qualifying score.
I can’t verify his score or if there were any gimmies given to him (a few of my putts were sent back to me) but regardless, I’m not too pleased about it because it’s not how it’s meant to be done.
The 3rd player on the day, did mention they might put a score in beforehand, but after a poor start said they weren’t going to… Which also made me rather uncomfortable.

So here we have someone who hasn’t played to his handicap in 2022 in 9 competitions (best score: 35 points off 10) and yet has been cut from 10 to 7 and is telling the whole world about his gains…

Starting to see more and more handicap records being littered with great supplementary scores. My genuine competition generated handicap doesn’t look so good, when so many have the same handicap but haven’t broken 80 in a comp for 3 years?

Are members meant to police this? Supp cards are allowed to be used, sure, but I honestly think they shouldn’t be allowed at all. Too much misuse by people who don’t see that they’re abusing the system. I’ve heard of a few times where people have made a mess of the back 9 and just put the front 9 score instead as a 9 hole record…

I’m not really seeing anyone use the system legitimately tbh.

One friend tells me I care too much?

My friend and I use the system legitimately - difficult for either of us to play in many comps, (but will when we can), but when we play we try and always do a card to keep our index's as accurate as possible. We've never even talked of doing anything untoward, I'm not sure either of us would, I know if he asked me to do something dodgy it would be a no-go.

 

[Billysboots]

This is why I stay away from matchplay. If I was in that situation (being called a bandit), I would have just told him he could have the match and walked off. I can make myself miserable on a golf course....I don't need somebody else to do it for me.

I’m not a huge fan for various reasons. Don’t play much and certainly don’t enter knockouts any more.

The guy I played in the next round was a fella I knew reasonably well, but hadn’t played with before. He said on the 1st tee not to take anything personally, but he wouldn’t be talking to me for the next 3-4 hours, and would be walking down the edge of every fairway so he could concentrate on his own game. Whilst I kind of get that, surely this is a social game. Playing 18 holes in complete silence had never happened to me before, neither has it since. That was his way, apparently.

 

[Mandofred]

I’m not a huge fan for various reasons. Don’t play much and certainly don’t enter knockouts any more.

The guy I played in the next round was a fella I knew reasonably well, but hadn’t played with before. He said on the 1st tee not to take anything personally, but he wouldn’t be talking to me for the next 3-4 hours, and would be walking down the edge of every fairway so he could concentrate on his own game. Whilst I kind of get that, surely this is a social game. Playing 18 holes in complete silence had never happened to me before, neither has it since. That was his way, apparently.

I can live with something like that.....he let you know up front. It might not make for the most enjoyable round of golf, but I could live with that. The last time I played a match a couple of years ago, I let the guy know up front I don't give gimmes outside a foot.....no problem. Nothing worse than people complaining for years about some guy who didn't give him a putt he "should have"......

 

[arnieboy]

I’m not a huge fan for various reasons. Don’t play much and certainly don’t enter knockouts any more.

The guy I played in the next round was a fella I knew reasonably well, but hadn’t played with before. He said on the 1st tee not to take anything personally, but he wouldn’t be talking to me for the next 3-4 hours, and would be walking down the edge of every fairway so he could concentrate on his own game. Whilst I kind of get that, surely this is a social game. Playing 18 holes in complete silence had never happened to me before, neither has it since. That was his way, apparently.

Strange attitude, did you win?

 

[Billysboots]

Strange attitude, did you win?

Lost 2&1. Had a great chat and a beer after, but couldn’t help feeling it was a club handicap knockout, not the Ryder Cup. Just found the whole experience very odd.

 

[Orikoru]

Lost 2&1. Had a great chat and a beer after, but couldn’t help feeling it was a club handicap knockout, not the Ryder Cup. Just found the whole experience very odd.

I'd have been cracking stupid jokes and whatnot throughout the round anyway, even if he didn't reply. And if it put him off that's his problem. ?

 

[clubchamp98]

Lost 2&1. Had a great chat and a beer after, but couldn’t help feeling it was a club handicap knockout, not the Ryder Cup. Just found the whole experience very odd.

The general public are odd.
No suprize golf has a few.
It happened to my mate years ago in the scratch team.
He said he kept just saying random sentences at the top of his voice.
When the guy said “ what” he just said .” I wasn’t talking to you” made me laugh.

 

[pendodave]

I’m not a huge fan for various reasons. Don’t play much and certainly don’t enter knockouts any more.

The guy I played in the next round was a fella I knew reasonably well, but hadn’t played with before. He said on the 1st tee not to take anything personally, but he wouldn’t be talking to me for the next 3-4 hours, and would be walking down the edge of every fairway so he could concentrate on his own game. Whilst I kind of get that, surely this is a social game. Playing 18 holes in complete silence had never happened to me before, neither has it since. That was his way, apparently.

How bizarre.
I always treat the club knockout comps (singles and 4bbb) as a chance to meet and play with people I wouldn't normally run into.
Not that I don't treat it seriously, but come on. We're middle aged men getting shots, not youth on tour.

 

[Swango1980]

I’m not a huge fan for various reasons. Don’t play much and certainly don’t enter knockouts any more.

The guy I played in the next round was a fella I knew reasonably well, but hadn’t played with before. He said on the 1st tee not to take anything personally, but he wouldn’t be talking to me for the next 3-4 hours, and would be walking down the edge of every fairway so he could concentrate on his own game. Whilst I kind of get that, surely this is a social game. Playing 18 holes in complete silence had never happened to me before, neither has it since. That was his way, apparently.

I assume this is when you represented Europe in the Ryder Cup?

 

[Billysboots]

How bizarre.
I always treat the club knockout comps (singles and 4bbb) as a chance to meet and play with people I wouldn't normally run into.
Not that I don't treat it seriously, but come on. We're middle aged men getting shots, not youth on tour.

Quite!

 

[Billysboots]

I assume this is when you represented Europe in the Ryder Cup?

Felt like it, but with none of the crowds. Or free kit. Or groupies. The opening and closing ceremonies were very quiet affairs, too.

 

[sweaty sock]

This thread has successfully put me off ever entering a club knockout again...

 

[Orikoru]

How bizarre.
I always treat the club knockout comps (singles and 4bbb) as a chance to meet and play with people I wouldn't normally run into.
Not that I don't treat it seriously, but come on. We're middle aged men getting shots, not youth on tour.

100% - and if I took it that seriously I would play worse as well! In the pairs matchplays I've played, I just make sure I enjoy the round and don't even think about the score, and I tend to play better that way anyway so it's win-win.

 

[Patster1969]

This thread has successfully put me off ever entering a club knockout again...

100% - the comments I heard from the low handicappers having to give "hackers" a load of shots also helped