Have you ever played with a known handicap cheat?

[Bobthesock]

I've always felt that could be an unwanted consequence of WHS. Are you cheating? Well, I wouldn't call you a cheat because in my mind, there always has to be some malicious intent to be classed as a cheat. However, as you are not technically playing to the best of your ability, then you could be accused of not fulfilling your handicapping responsibilities (maybe you could argue you are trying to play the best possible flop shot, despite it being the wrong type of shot).

Always felt WHS could favour, to some extent, the mentally weaker golfers. The ones who give up early in the round (doesn't even need to be that early to be honest, even a blow up with 3 or 4 holes to go can make a difference). If they do it frequently, there is ever chance some of those rounds could make their top 8, whilst many outside the top 8 never had a chance due to players mindset. This would result in a higher index, to some degree, than would have been possible if the player tried harder.

Compare to a player who digs deep no matter how rubbish they started. All 8 scores will have been submitted with the player trying their hardest, and some of those 8 might have featured dodgy starts, but the player turned it round and had an amazing end to the round. It is more likely they will reach a relatively lower index (against their actual ability) than the first player.

Completely agree with this. My handicap is the same as it was pre whs even though I feel like I'm much better now on my good days. Still have enough bad rounds to keep it there though.
I find that trying my hardest when playing badly just results in worse scores and more frustration so probably end up playing better when not caring.
I actually holed a ridiculous flop shot a few weeks ago when thinking "sod it"

 

[Orikoru]

Watched one competitive scramble on the Good Good channel, each team was allowed take 4 mulligans in their round! Thought that was a bit mad

That's extremely weird in a scramble. A scramble is essentially 3 Mulligans for each shot already!

 

[sunshine]

I watch various bits of golf on YouTube. I've also noted how loose the American guys are with rules.
I've watched scrambles where the position of ball being taken is never marked even on green. The others just play from roughly the same place.
Also when putting if one of first guys is close to hole after hitting their putt they generally walk up and tap it in before others hit their putt. To me once you tap in that's the hole finished
Very dodgy also with lost balls , just dropping one where ball got lost as opposed to hitting provisional from original position

I can see why a lot of American golfers seem to have a handicap that appears lower than their ability

Watched one competitive scramble on the Good Good channel, each team was allowed take 4 mulligans in their round! Thought that was a bit mad

But this is scrambles which isn't a serious format to begin with. It's just a bit of fun so playing from roughly the same place is fine. Has nothing to do with handicaps.

 

[3offTheTee]

Played on Saturday in a singles Comp. and the lad in the group in front took at leat 5 minutes looking for a ball. I had a ’ discussion’ with him about 6 weeks ago in similar circumstances said, “ nobody’s only spends 3 minutes looking for a ball”

He found the ball on the fairway, after he had given up, his fellow competitor whom I know told me and he finished with a par. He won his category!

Basically it is nothing that I can do is there?

 

[Swango1980]

Played on Saturday in a singles Comp. and the lad in the group in front took at leat 5 minutes looking for a ball. I had a ’ discussion’ with him about 6 weeks ago in similar circumstances said, “ nobody’s only spends 3 minutes looking for a ball”

He found the ball on the fairway, after he had given up, his fellow competitor whom I know told me and he finished with a par. He won his category!

Basically it is nothing that I can do is there?

Well, you could report it to the Committee and they can seek a clarification from the player. If his response is "nobody spends only 3 minutes looking for a ball", then I don't think it would do him much good.

However, sadly you have probably hit on a rule that is broken consistently by many, whilst others stick to it. Therefore, it is the ones that don't bother that get the advantage. My mate told me that, last week in our club champs, one of the chaps he played with could not find his ball. After failing in his search, he then went all the way back to the tee to play a 3rd. Then came back and happened to find his original. He shouted "here it is, found my first one" and proceeded to play on with that one. This guy was not some newbie. He is probably in his 60's, been at the club for decades and was a very low handicapper once upon a time, I think he is around 11 or 12 now. My mate and the other guy in the group were a bit shocked, but like many golfers who are out to play their hobby, they didn't want to quote the rule book at him and turn it into a potentially uncomfortable situation. So they just ignored it and moved on.

But, in general, I have been behind groups frequently who seem to occasionally take an age to look for a ball. I have played with players who will continue looking, even after someone else has said it looks like the 3 minutes is up. I think the general rule many golfers use is not 3 minutes. It is how long can I get away with looking before I start holding up the group behind too long, or slowing my group too much. That subjective time often is a lot longer than 3 minutes.

 

[KenL]

But this is scrambles which isn't a serious format to begin with. It's just a bit of fun so playing from roughly the same place is fine. Has nothing to do with handicaps.

Can be decent prizes to be won though, so there ought to be some regard for rules.

 

[Orikoru]

Well, you could report it to the Committee and they can seek a clarification from the player. If his response is "nobody spends only 3 minutes looking for a ball", then I don't think it would do him much good.

However, sadly you have probably hit on a rule that is broken consistently by many, whilst others stick to it. Therefore, it is the ones that don't bother that get the advantage. My mate told me that, last week in our club champs, one of the chaps he played with could not find his ball. After failing in his search, he then went all the way back to the tee to play a 3rd. Then came back and happened to find his original. He shouted "here it is, found my first one" and proceeded to play on with that one. This guy was not some newbie. He is probably in his 60's, been at the club for decades and was a very low handicapper once upon a time, I think he is around 11 or 12 now. My mate and the other guy in the group were a bit shocked, but like many golfers who are out to play their hobby, they didn't want to quote the rule book at him and turn it into a potentially uncomfortable situation. So they just ignored it and moved on.

But, in general, I have been behind groups frequently who seem to occasionally take an age to look for a ball. I have played with players who will continue looking, even after someone else has said it looks like the 3 minutes is up. I think the general rule many golfers use is not 3 minutes. It is how long can I get away with looking before I start holding up the group behind too long, or slowing my group too much. That subjective time often is a lot longer than 3 minutes.

I've said this before and it caused uproar with the usual suspects of course, but the fact is, I've never played with anybody who actually timed 3 minutes. Most people just look for it for an unspecific amount of time before giving up. It could be 2 minutes or could be 4, but as long as they're not taking the absolute pee then I'm fine with it. If they are taking the pee and have clearly taken too long I'll just say "pretty sure that's your time up anyway" or something to that effect and then walk on and leave them to it. If it turns out they have found a ball after 3 minutes and 5 seconds it's no skin off my nose, I'll never know for sure anyway. I can't live my life being that anal about a game of golf.

I can't say I've ever seen someone do what you said there though.

 

[KenL]

I check my watch and keep an eye on the time in any search in a competition.

 

[Swango1980]

I've said this before and it caused uproar with the usual suspects of course, but the fact is, I've never played with anybody who actually timed 3 minutes. Most people just look for it for an unspecific amount of time before giving up. It could be 2 minutes or could be 4, but as long as they're not taking the absolute pee then I'm fine with it. If they are taking the pee and have clearly taken too long I'll just say "pretty sure that's your time up anyway" or something to that effect and then walk on and leave them to it. If it turns out they have found a ball after 3 minutes and 5 seconds it's no skin off my nose, I'll never know for sure anyway. I can't live my life being that anal about a game of golf.

I can't say I've ever seen someone do what you said there though.

Ohh no Orikoru, this isn't another one of your "I'm happy to assume it is in bounds if the grass is cut short, despite behind beyond the white stakes" comments!?

I agree, generally, that virtually nobody gets the stop watch out, and so will never know exactly how long has passed. And, peoples perception of time is very different. The only person I've ever heard of anybody knowing exactly how long has passed using their mind was Jack Reacher, and he is fictional.

 

[Orikoru]

Ohh no Orikoru, this isn't another one of your "I'm happy to assume it is in bounds if the grass is cut short, despite behind beyond the white stakes" comments!?

I agree, generally, that virtually nobody gets the stop watch out, and so will never know exactly how long has passed. And, peoples perception of time is very different. The only person I've ever heard of anybody knowing exactly how long has passed using their mind was Jack Reacher, and he is fictional.

I've already had it for this one before, trust me.

 

[RichA]

I've said this before and it caused uproar with the usual suspects of course, but the fact is, I've never played with anybody who actually timed 3 minutes. Most people just look for it for an unspecific amount of time before giving up. It could be 2 minutes or could be 4, but as long as they're not taking the absolute pee then I'm fine with it. If they are taking the pee and have clearly taken too long I'll just say "pretty sure that's your time up anyway" or something to that effect and then walk on and leave them to it. If it turns out they have found a ball after 3 minutes and 5 seconds it's no skin off my nose, I'll never know for sure anyway. I can't live my life being that anal about a game of golf.

I can't say I've ever seen someone do what you said there though.

I time it. The timer on my Garmin watch is set to 3 minutes.
If I'm helping somebody look for their ball I wander off to play my own shot when it buzzes.
If I'm looking for my own ball I'm generally bored of searching and off to my provisional after 90 seconds.

 

[3offTheTee]

Played on Saturday in a singles Comp. and the lad in the group in front took at leat 5 minutes looking for a ball. I had a ’ discussion’ with him about 6 weeks ago in similar circumstances said, “ nobody’s only spends 3 minutes looking for a ball”

He found the ball on the fairway, after he had given up, his fellow competitor whom I know told me and he finished with a par. He won his category!

Basically it is nothing that I can do is there?

The guy in question was actually winning The Comp. Until the penultimate group came in!

 

[slicer79]

But this is scrambles which isn't a serious format to begin with. It's just a bit of fun so playing from roughly the same place is fine. Has nothing to do with handicaps.

No but it was still a competition with prizes so I'd expect rules to be followed.
Any scramble I've played in someone sticks down a tee where we're to play each shot from
I've also noticed they place everywhere including rough. Any scramble I've played is place on fairway, drop in rough

 

[arnieboy]

No but it was still a competition with prizes so I'd expect rules to be followed.
Any scramble I've played in someone sticks down a tee where we're to play each shot from
I've also noticed they place everywhere including rough. Any scramble I've played is place on fairway, drop in rough

Totally agree with the last sentence.

 

[Slab]

I time it. The timer on my Garmin watch is set to 3 minutes.
If I'm helping somebody look for their ball I wander off to play my own shot when it buzzes.
If I'm looking for my own ball I'm generally bored of searching and off to my provisional after 90 seconds.

Any tips for activating the timer while garmin is in the GPS golf mode?

 

[RichA]

Any tips for activating the timer while garmin is in the GPS golf mode?

On mine (Venu 2), press and hold the top right button and it brings up the controls menu which includes the timer. This works on my watch whatever mode you're in.

 

[Slab]

No but it was still a competition with prizes so I'd expect rules to be followed.
Any scramble I've played in someone sticks down a tee where we're to play each shot from
I've also noticed they place everywhere including rough. Any scramble I've played is place on fairway, drop in rough

Fun as Scrambles are I agree there should be 'rules' for the comp. although these will vary from one committee to another and one year to the next
(I think it was @Colin L who had a great template for Scramble rules that he shared a while back)

Although there's not necessarily any 'breach' taking place, I've played in them where placing is through the green and others where its closely mown only. In other Scrambles mulligans could be purchased (proceeds to charity etc) before the start, sometimes mulligans are to be used on tee shots only, other times any shot can be retaken (inc a putt!)
None of this really matters in Scramble format providing its the same for the field on that day, although to a 3rd party hearing about placing in rough or mulligans etc after the event they might be a tad surprised unless they knew the conditions of comp that were in force

 

[richbeech]

Did anyone see the Twitter post from Joel Tadman about his participation in his Club Champs last weekend. He didn't draw attention to it to be fair but he put up some pictures of the leaderboard after day 1 and 2.

After day 1 a 10 handicap was sitting 3rd with a level par gross 70 followed up by a 5 over par gross 75 on day 2. he finished 3rd overall and every other player around him in the top 13 were 5 handicap or below.

I don't know the full circumstances of course, but even if the lad had been having lessons or in a bit of good form, a genuine 10 handicap shouldn't be shooting those kind of scores in my opinion, even more so on back to back days and with a club champs set up. Ridiculous.

 

[Backache]

Did anyone see the Twitter post from Joel Tadman about his participation in his Club Champs last weekend. He didn't draw attention to it to be fair but he put up some pictures of the leaderboard after day 1 and 2.

After day 1 a 10 handicap was sitting 3rd with a level par gross 70 followed up by a 5 over par gross 75 on day 2. he finished 3rd overall and every other player around him in the top 13 were 5 handicap or below.

I don't know the full circumstances of course, but even if the lad had been having lessons or in a bit of good form, a genuine 10 handicap shouldn't be shooting those kind of scores in my opinion, even more so on back to back days and with a club champs set up. Ridiculous.

Presumably it is not a handicap competition and some people do improve quickly. Preumably his handicap will be cut as a result of those scores and as it is outwith a handicap competition there is no evidence of manipulation.

 

[Swango1980]

Did anyone see the Twitter post from Joel Tadman about his participation in his Club Champs last weekend. He didn't draw attention to it to be fair but he put up some pictures of the leaderboard after day 1 and 2.

After day 1 a 10 handicap was sitting 3rd with a level par gross 70 followed up by a 5 over par gross 75 on day 2. he finished 3rd overall and every other player around him in the top 13 were 5 handicap or below.

I don't know the full circumstances of course, but even if the lad had been having lessons or in a bit of good form, a genuine 10 handicap shouldn't be shooting those kind of scores in my opinion, even more so on back to back days and with a club champs set up. Ridiculous.

It depends. My mate won his first club championship when he played off around 13 or 14. His first round was level par (1 over SSS). He had a genuine earned handicap before the club champs, and maybe been a member for a year or two. He is a naturally sporty guy, and he would have started to play and practice a bit more in the weeks leading up to the Club Champs, like a lot of players do. So, the Club Champs along with the practice just lead to him refining his game, and ultimately led to him beginning the process of falling towards a handicap of low single figures (think his best was 4 or 5).

So, just because someone shoots nett 10 under, it is probably fair to say, doesn't automatically categorise them as a handicap cheat (as per the thread title). They could just have a genuine reason to have significant improvement, coupled with a round that went extremely well for them in terms of luck.