Ethical and legal stand point at golf club ruling

[HomerJSimpson]

I must confess, I have never been at a club that has allowed juniors to enter adult comps such as this. I also find it rather ironic that words such as “discrimination” are used about a club that has a £5k annual subscription ( and god knows what joining fee as well). If it was a pay and play, or your bog standard course I could understand a little more, but at this sort of subscription level I can’t.
Just for a little context, I live in the South East with an Open qualifier about 15 mins from me, and they have a subscription of £3k.
I would suggest the OP and his lad change clubs.

I guess the counter-argument would be that if the OP can afford to pay for him and his son why shouldn't they play there. Clubs seem to have differing rules on what juniors can do in terms of playing adult events and if they have allowed him to play the first few clearly there wasn't an issue originally and it is only the youngster winning the OOM and in line for a large windfall that is causing the issue.

Personally I am with you and with all of the aggro and fall-out from this I would change clubs for the son to enjoy his golf without any issues

 

[woofers]

I am guessing that the ‘club’ is relatively new, i.e less than 20 years old?
Corporate feel, high fees, an ‘events co-ordinator’, director of golf, no captain, no committees.
So not a traditional ‘golf club’, more of a ‘place to play golf’.
Depends what you want, I prefer the traditional one.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I must confess, I have never been at a club that has allowed juniors to enter adult comps such as this. I also find it rather ironic that words such as “discrimination” are used about a club that has a £5k annual subscription ( and god knows what joining fee as well). If it was a pay and play, or your bog standard course I could understand a little more, but at this sort of subscription level I can’t.
Just for a little context, I live in the South East with an Open qualifier about 15 mins from me, and they have a subscription of £3k.
I would suggest the OP and his lad change clubs.

I was a junior at my club in the 1970s.
Juniors have always been welcome in board comps.
In the 1970s the maximum handicap for men was 24, but for board comps the maximum was 20. You could enter if your handicap was 21 to 24, but for the comp you would be off 20.
This same rule applied to juniors. I can still remember causing something of a stir when I entered my first board comp off 18. I came second.
Two years later I won my first mens board comp shooting level par off 8 handicap. I was 16. Got cut to 5 immediately.

I think it has just been Captain's Day and President's Day that did not allow under 18s. I don't know if this is still the case.

Although the maximum allowances have increased, my club has not changed its principle of inclusiveness for juniors.
We had one lad who shot 74 + 71 gross to win the club championship when still 15 years old. I remember it well, because I came second.

I think my club is fairly typical/normal with regard to the under 18s.

 

[rksquire]

Without a committee how does the constitution get changed, and by who?

It would seem the club have been rash with this decision with so many events left - I assume he was on the leaderboard prior to hitting top spot, yet no action taken until he became a threat. Great that he is doing so well, shame the club went a different direction rather than celebrating his achievement. I guess at £5k a year, some peoples ego can't handle the possibility that a junior, with official handicap and submitted cards, might take the prize.

If a mistake has been made, then correct it for next year - this years OOM should play out to the original rules which did not exclude him. I would suggest there is some is some (pedantic) doubt about whether a junior member having the same 'playing' rights / rights is the same as actually being a 7 day member but it sounds like it's not fully defined.

 

[Severof]

This. I'd like to add also that the Competition Charter for 2024 states that ' Members who are not eligible to play in Club Board events, will not be issued with Order of Merit Points'. If I had to bet my life on it, I could probably name the members ( if any ) that have kicked up a fuss to cause this issue.

As someone said, it could be just an "oops" by the organizer (failed to exclude juniors as this was always intended). Happened to me once when I was a junior. Very fair to ask some questions for clarification but, imo, no big fuss to be made if this is the case.
There is certainly the question of amateur status to be addressed by the club.
Not sure what responsibilities the Rules of Handicapping or Handicapping Committee would have in this issue?

Without a committee how does the constitution get changed, and by who?

It would seem the club have been rash with this decision with so many events left - I assume he was on the leaderboard prior to hitting top spot, yet no action taken until he became a threat. Great that he is doing so well, shame the club went a different direction rather than celebrating his achievement. I guess at £5k a year, some peoples ego can't handle the possibility that a junior, with official handicap and submitted cards, might take the prize.

If a mistake has been made, then correct it for next year - this years OOM should play out to the original rules which did not exclude him. I would suggest there is some is some (pedantic) doubt about whether a junior member having the same 'playing' rights / rights is the same as actually being a 7 day member but it sounds like it's not fully defined

 

[JayB]

I must confess, I have never been at a club that has allowed juniors to enter adult comps such as this.

My lad regularly enters board comps and has also been lucky enough to win one at my club. Apart from a bit of gentle ribbing for the 2nd place golfer from his mates in the clubhouse for being beaten by a 12 year old it was taken in good spirits, he was well received both on the day and at the presentation evening. Exactly how it should be IMHO.

Unfortunately I've also seen the other side of it where long standing, well regarding members take exception when they are doing well.

If I was the OP, I wouldn't waste me time fighting it, I would love for you to prove me wrong but I don't see this as a fight you can win. I would leave the club, take your lad somewhere where they accept, encourage and appreciate juniors, he'll get so much more enjoyment out of playing in the right environment.

 

[Severof]

Thanks all again for your replies. In response to some, I think the 'ego' quote hits the nail on the head. All members he has played with in these events so far have been great but in the background, there are a few members within the larger well known club roll-ups where I have sixth-sensed a feeling of resentment. Yes he was in the top 10 on the leader board after event 2 or 3 back in April/May so has been displayed on the leaderboard since then.

Each time he has entered one of these events, starting at the end of March, an hour before teeing off he is handed his score card and greeted in the morning by the very Event co-ordinator that has sent me the email informing us that he has been exluded. The Director of golf even filled in this duty a couple of weeks ago prior to the start of event 5.

The Club is over 20 years old and we joined as the track and practice facilities are the best in the area by a country mile . The fees are high and I would not normally entertain their current joining fee but after enquiring and being put off by it 5 years ago, a couple of years later the club contacted me and asked if I was interested in joining with a vastly reduced joining fee package. After much deliberation we left our club and switched over. The Club has hosted European Tour events and rumour has it, there are some other interesting things lined in the pipeline.

In the last few days I have contacted a number of clubs and have received 3 positive replies. I have even already enrolled him as a junior at an Open qualifier course as they offered a remainder of the year fee of just £60. This is over an hour away drive from home, so good for once a fortnight games maybe, but if we do move I will look at something closer for us both too.
As stated before my lad loves it where we are, until now that is, but who knows, this may change today as I have received an email this morning from the Director of Golf asking me to attend to speak with him this evening. Hopefully they will do the right thing, but I think the previous replies of them 'closing ranks' could well be the outcome. In anycase I will provide an update of what is said and what decisions we will then make going fwd.
Thanks again SR

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So they have no Handicaps and Comps committee and they exceed the amateur status limit on prizes.

It would seem to me that this is a bunch of arrogant "members" who believe that they can do whatever they like.
This is the type of human behaviour that makes me sick.

If you battle against them and "win" by getting your son rightfully re-instated to the Order Of Merit comp, they will hold it against you and find other ways to make your life hell.

Rise above it, take the moral high ground, but waste little time, energy and no money in what is actually a rightful cause.

Your son deserves to play at another club where he should be welcomed, encouraged and appreciated.
The young are the future of all golf clubs.
Some clubs are very insular and not far-sighted. These clubs are to be avoided.

But if they cave in very quickly, stay and make the best of it for the time being.

A good life-lesson for your son that the adult world can sometimes be no different from the primary school playground.

Best to not engage in conflict with the playground bully…but walk away knowing you have risen above it and don’t have to watch your back for any spiteful retribution; and with the peace of mind that comes from that, and from knowing that bullies usually get their comeuppance.

In withdrawing your son from the OoM comps you might ask the club to give your son some goodwill gesture (in addition to his/your money back) - some form of compensation to your son for their mistake and his disappointment. How they handle that request will tell you how much they value their young members and support of juniors - and then decide whether the club is somewhere and an environment in which you’d like your lad to grow up in.

Plus how they handle you and your concerns/complaint will also tell you a lot about whether or not it’s a club that you want to be a member of. But in raising questions of ‘legitimacy’ others have mentioned you have done your bit for other members in getting the club to address its shortcomings.

 

[Backache]

I don't really agree with non scratch competitions mixing juniors and adults. The juniors often improve at such a rate that the handicaps are meaningless.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Stay calm.
Remember that they are the ones in the poo.
You and your son have done nothing wrong.

Hope it goes well.

 

[Voyager EMH]

I don't really agree with non scratch competitions mixing juniors and adults. The juniors often improve at such a rate that the handicaps are meaningless.

Adults can improve at the same or even greater rate, as they can learn to hit the ball further than a 13 year old can do.
The "meaningless handicaps" can apply equally to adult improvers.

 

[Backache]

Adults can improve at the same or even greater rate, as they can learn to hit the ball further than a 13 year old can do.
The "meaningless handicaps" can apply equally to adult improvers.

They rarely improve at quite the same rate but I do also disagree with very high handicaps for adults .

 

[Severof]

I don't really agree with non scratch competitions mixing juniors and adults. The juniors often improve at such a rate that the handicaps are meaningless.

I understand this angle and get it if they are playing off of fwd tees and playing off of very high hcaps, but if they are the same tees, and at a certain level, on a tough course prone to windy conditions it usually levels itself out, especially if the event is run over 7-8 months and all h'caps are adjusted accordingly throughout the year. As said before, he hasn't sandbagged any event, far from it and the top 6 are currently only seperated by 3 points.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I was a junior at my club in the 1970s.
Juniors have always been welcome in board comps.
In the 1970s the maximum handicap for men was 24, but for board comps the maximum was 20. You could enter if your handicap was 21 to 24, but for the comp you would be off 20.
This same rule applied to juniors. I can still remember causing something of a stir when I entered my first board comp off 18. I came second.
Two years later I won my first mens board comp shooting level par off 8 handicap. I was 16. Got cut to 5 immediately.

I think it has just been Captain's Day and President's Day that did not allow under 18s. I don't know if this is still the case.

Although the maximum allowances have increased, my club has not changed its principle of inclusiveness for juniors.
We had one lad who shot 74 + 71 gross to win the club championship when still 15 years old. I remember it well, because I came second.

I think my club is fairly typical/normal with regard to the under 18s.

There was a fair bit of debate at my place about whether of not Lottie Woad (when a junior) should be able to enter our main (gents) scratch KO comp (she would have been something like +6 at the time). We allowed her to enter. The same debate was had a year later in respect of our Club Championship - it has always been gents only, with a separate Ladies Club Champ. But as she was winning that year in year out the club accepted her entry request - though there was some quite vigorous debate on the matter. Unfortunately Lottie headed off to the college in the states before it was played. I personally think it would have been great to have an 18yr old girl as Club Champion as it would represent visibly how very supportive my club is to junior and girls golf.

 

[Backache]

I understand this angle and get it if they are playing off of fwd tees and playing off of very high hcaps, but if they are the same tees, and at a certain level, on a tough course prone to windy conditions it usually levels itself out, especially if the event is run over 7-8 months and all h'caps are adjusted accordingly throughout the year. As said before, he hasn't sandbagged any event, far from it and the top 6 are currently only seperated by 3 points.

Sorry I should have made it clear, I feel very sorry for the predicament you are in and your sons situation. Nor do I think you are wrong to be complaining about it. Once a competition has started the rules should not be changed. It's just that I think in principle separating junior from adult competitions is not of itself discriminatory or stupid but is sensible given the different ways they tend to alter their handicap.

 

[Voyager EMH]

They rarely improve at quite the same rate but I do also disagree with very high handicaps for adults .

Imagine a 13 year old and a 22 year old both new to the game and getting 28 handicaps.

Who has the potential for the fastest and greatest improvement?

I would say the adult has, due to the potential for greater distances hit.

It would be interesting to see some factual analysis. Mine is merely a gut-feeling opinion. I could be very misguided or plain wrong.

 

[sunshine]

1. I believe you should stand up for what you believe in, and only walk away if it becomes acrimonious or starts to take a toll on you or your son.
2. I think it's fair game for you to ask the director of golf what outcome he is hoping to achieve, and what impact he think this will have on your son's mental health.

Do you have more than one course on site, and does this have any bearing on competitions / junior access? (e.g. one course is the "championship course")

 

[nickjdavis]

As stated before my lad loves it where we are, until now that is, but who knows, this may change today as I have received an email this morning from the Director of Golf asking me to attend to speak with him this evening. Hopefully they will do the right thing, but I think the previous replies of them 'closing ranks' could well be the outcome. In anycase I will provide an update of what is said and what decisions we will then make going fwd.
Thanks again SR

At least the willingness to meet in person is positive, rather than handling the matter by impersonal email.

It may well be that the DoG holds his hands up, admits the club ballsed up, if the original intention was to exclude juniors, and offer an apology.

Go with a receptive open mind, rather than with your back up. Make your points firmly, but without emotion, and see what happens.

 

[Severof]

At least the willingness to meet in person is positive, rather than handling the matter by impersonal email.

It may well be that the DoG holds his hands up, admits the club ballsed up, if the original intention was to exclude juniors, and offer an apology.

At least the willingness to meet in person is positive, rather than handling the matter by impersonal email.

It may well be that the DoG holds his hands up, admits the club ballsed up, if the original intention was to exclude juniors, and offer an apology.

Go with a receptive open mind, rather than with your back up. Make your points firmly, but without emotion, and see what happens.

Pretty much what has just happened. He spoke to me for about 25 mins and admitted this was a balls up by the club and he took full responsibility. He stated that the Competition Charter had not been updated as it should have been and that Juniors were never able to win board events. He said that he noticed my lad on the Leaderboard of the OOM after event 2 and instructed his events co-ordinator to speak with us to make it clear my son was unable to win any such event. He said he didn't think anything about it, thinking it had been done, until he was covering for the Event Co-ordinator last week for event 5 and handed him his scorecard in the morning before the event. Stated he then went back to the EC that afternoon to ask if he had done as instructed, but he confirmed he had still not informed us.

A couple of days later we then received that email. He stated that at no point had any member ever complained about my son taking part, and when I slipped it in, unbeknown to me, confirmed there was a handicap committee ( Apologies ). I did not raise the possible issue of prize fund .
He finished by saying that he had to make a very difficult decision as that of a father himself and as a manager/director. He admitted that the club had handled it very badly and if he were in my shoes he would have done the same and probably walked away from the Club. He concluded by saying that he still needed to sleep on the matter and now take advice from the CEO. Said he would call me tomorrow.
I will discuss with the wife and my lad tonight ( When he gets off the range ) , wait for their decision, then make ours.
ps: poster above. There is a Championship course. He has no restrictions on either.
Thanks again all

 

[nickjdavis]

I'll be honest...I don't think that you could have asked for anything more. The outcome might not be what you wanted but it sounds like the club has held its hands up and said "mea culpa".

Obviously you have a decision to make...if you decide to go...do it on good terms....you never know...just one day you might need to go back (trust me...I've been there ).