Ethical and legal stand point at golf club ruling

[Griffsters]

I think my overall feeling is to move on. At 13 yr old let him just enjoy golf, those are huge sums (even if vouchers!) to be playing for at that age. Whilst you may be hardened to legalese and golf club politics, im feeling he may not be be and is likely just a bit stressful tbh.

Do you both really need that stress? If relations are broken then let your money talk and go elsewhere IMHO

 

[Slab]

Yes he is a 7 day member. My son used my email address for membership registration purposes. The only way to get a junior membership is to be the child of a full 7 day member. The clubs website then states that Junior members have full playing rights as 7 day members.

So does that mean the lad is a Junior member with the playing rights of a 7 day member. So there would be other golf club membership rights that a junior member would not get that a full 7-day member does get... e.g maybe voting at agm etc, and maybe that means he’s technically not a 7 day member?

And its maybe useful to establish what "full playing rights' actually means at your club i.e things like ability to book tee times on xyz days or does it cover entry to all/any comps

(as i say maybe its irrelevant but maybe its not)

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I think my overall feeling is to move on. At 13 yr old let him just enjoy golf, those are huge sums (even if vouchers!) to be playing for at that age. Whilst you may be hardened to legalese and golf club politics, im feeling he may not be be and is likely just a bit stressful tbh.

Do you both really need that stress? If relations are broken then let your money talk and go elsewhere IMHO

Walking away isn’t a great life lesson for the lad in my opinion. It doesn’t have to cause him any stress if the OP deals with it.

As suspected. Don’t rock the old boys club boat seems to be the general response.

 

[Severof]

So does that mean the lad is a Junior member with the playing rights of a 7 day member. So there would be other golf club membership rights that a junior member would not get that a full 7-day member does get... e.g maybe voting at agm etc, i.e and maybe that means he’s technically not a 7 day member?

And its maybe useful to establish what "full playing rights' actually means at your club i.e things like ability to book tee times on xyz days or does it cover entry to all/any comps

(as i say maybe its irrelevant but maybe its not)

Thanks,. As far as I am aware there has never been an AGM where members are invited. We have no club Captain or other such titles attributed to members either.

 

[Severof]

Walking away isn’t a great life lesson for the lad in my opinion. It doesn’t have to cause him any stress if the OP deals with it.

As suspected. Don’t rock the old boys club boat seems to be the general response.

This. I'd like to add also that the Competition Charter for 2024 states that ' Members who are not eligible to play in Club Board events, will not be issued with Order of Merit Points'. If I had to bet my life on it, I could probably name the members ( if any ) that have kicked up a fuss to cause this issue.

 

[Neilds]

You will get nowhere by trying to quote the Equalities Act. If you want full equality then all members will be allowed to enter any competition, irrespective of age or gender, and will also have to pay the same fees to join so that won't work.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Walking away isn’t a great life lesson for the lad in my opinion. It doesn’t have to cause him any stress if the OP deals with it.

As suspected. Don’t rock the old boys club boat seems to be the general response.

I agree but sometimes you have to pick the battles to fight and this seems a very difficult one to win. Explaining that sometimes people will change the rules (and not just golf clubs) and sometimes you aren't going to have everything black and white is the better lesson surely. Only my opinion, not a view on your own parenting values

 

[Neilds]

Thankyou. Let me clarify, the prizes are in vouchers to that amount from a well known golf clothing brand who have sponsored the event. MAybe that makes a difference, I dont know. The entry fee for each event is £10. There is also a £5 2's pot for each event, but he has been unable to enter that due to his age.

The fact that the prizes are vouchers makes no difference. Rule 3b in the Amateur Status rules states "may accept another prize up to a limit of £700"

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I agree but sometimes you have to pick the battles to fight and this seems a very difficult one to win. Explaining that sometimes people will change the rules (and not just golf clubs) and sometimes you aren't going to have everything black and white is the better lesson surely. Only my opinion, not a view on your own parenting values

I wouldn’t pick a battle based on whether it would be easy or difficult to win, but on whether or not it’s the right battle to pick.

I tell my kids to do the same. To not just accept something because someone in ‘authority’ says it’s so. Or because doing the right thing might be uncomfortable.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I wouldn’t pick a battle based on whether it would be easy or difficult to win, but on whether or not it’s the right battle to pick.

I tell my kids to do the same. To not just accept something because someone in ‘authority’ says it’s so. Or because doing the right thing might be uncomfortable.

I am agreeing with you albeit not articulating it too well I think. My take would be it is fine to fight it if you think there has been an injustice (otherwise how do we ever get change in any aspect of life). I just think we all know how clubs can close ranks when it suits and it may prove a long and fruitless effort in this instance and if as the OP says there is a club nearby with a thriving junior section then that may be a reasonable compromise. I think I'll leave it there as we are in danger of taking this way off topic

 

[nickjdavis]

Thanks. Agree with this mostly. Am hoping they will admit the error. I was just looking here for any advice I could use at a potential meeting. I'm pretty sure they will refund the £50 but you are right, long term future now in the balance. To give contrast, a Golf club up the road just crowned it's club singles match play champion as an 11 Yr old boy. He won the final 7&6 from the same tees. He plays off of 2 and has won a number of International events which his club openly celebrate. My son is not near his level, but after a query made by me a few days ago, they have already offered him a membership there this week.

Stick to the plain facts...

The earlier Terms of Competition made no mention of juniors being excluded from the order of merit. This now appears to have changed. Why?

Ask for details of the committee meeting when the ToC's changed, who attended, minutes etc...if no committee meeting occurred ask "why not" and who made the unilateral decision. If the response is "we dont have a committee" then raise the issue that the club is potentially not complying with the rules of Handicapping and that there is the potential that members handicaps could be suspended as a result.

(I would be very surprised though if a club charging £5k annual fees would put themselves in such a position of not having the appropriate processes in place to ensure they complied with local Union and EG (assuming you are in England) regulations.)

Ignore the Human Rights/Equality aspects.....bringing this up will simply cloud the issue and potentially mark you out as a troublemaker.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I am agreeing with you albeit not articulating it too well I think. My take would be it is fine to fight it if you think there has been an injustice (otherwise how do we ever get change in any aspect of life). I just think we all know how clubs can close ranks when it suits and it may prove a long and fruitless effort in this instance and if as the OP says there is a club nearby with a thriving junior section then that may be a reasonable compromise. I think I'll leave it there as we are in danger of taking this way off topic

I wasn’t suggesting you were disagreeing. Just expanding on my point of view

 

[rulie]

As someone said, it could be just an "oops" by the organizer (failed to exclude juniors as this was always intended). Happened to me once when I was a junior. Very fair to ask some questions for clarification but, imo, no big fuss to be made if this is the case.
There is certainly the question of amateur status to be addressed by the club.
Not sure what responsibilities the Rules of Handicapping or Handicapping Committee would have in this issue?

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Thankyou. Let me clarify, the prizes are in vouchers to that amount from a well known golf clothing brand who have sponsored the event. MAybe that makes a difference, I dont know. The entry fee for each event is £10. There is also a £5 2's pot for each event, but he has been unable to enter that due to his age.

As @Neilds has already said, no it makes no difference, they simply can't offer prizes of that value

 

[woofers]

Not sure what responsibilities the Rules of Handicapping or Handicapping Committee would have in this issue?

In this issue, none.
I was alluding to the fact that the OP referred to the club being “ a little on the corporate side golf club” and had no committee that he was aware of. This would be in contravention of the Rules of Handicapping, and England Golf requirement that a Handicap Committee should comprise a minimum of 3 members.
Sometimes these places seem to think that certain rules and regulations don’t apply to them, they’re “too big” and members just have to go along with whatever the “golf director”, or “golf events team” tell them, and if they don’t like it, leave. Perhaps this attitude is pertinent in this issue. But it’s nice, sometimes, to let them know that they aren’t always right.

 

[rulie]

In this issue, none.
I was alluding to the fact that the OP referred to the club being “ a little on the corporate side golf club” and had no committee that he was aware of. This would be in contravention of the Rules of Handicapping, and England Golf requirement that a Handicap Committee should comprise a minimum of 3 members.
Sometimes these places seem to think that certain rules and regulations don’t apply to them, they’re “too big” and members just have to go along with whatever the “golf director”, or “golf events team” tell them, and if they don’t like it, leave. Perhaps this attitude is pertinent in this issue. But it’s nice, sometimes, to let them know that they aren’t always right.

Is that a case of "even if they're wrong, they're right"?

 

[Griffsters]

Walking away isn’t a great life lesson for the lad in my opinion. It doesn’t have to cause him any stress if the OP deals with it.

As suspected. Don’t rock the old boys club boat seems to be the general response.

Walking away isn't the life lesson here tho IMHO. There needs to be lessons learned by the club here, but this all seems a bit too 'pitchforks' to me. The lad is involved whether Dad does the donkey work or not, pick your battles move on or it will ruin golf for the lad at that club. Maybe find a decent juniors section elsewhere with active competition and engage in that - much healthier in the long term.

 

[3 jabber]

I would be tempted to get a solicitor to write to the club asking for the reason the rules have changed. Would probably cost no more than £100 and it would let them know they have to play by their own rules.

But I'm the type that doesn't take kindly to being turned over. And at £5k a year membership for an 'ok' course I wouldn't be scared to kick up a stink and walk away if necessary.

 

[Voyager EMH]

So they have no Handicaps and Comps committee and they exceed the amateur status limit on prizes.

It would seem to me that this is a bunch of arrogant "members" who believe that they can do whatever they like.
This is the type of human behaviour that makes me sick.

If you battle against them and "win" by getting your son rightfully re-instated to the Order Of Merit comp, they will hold it against you and find other ways to make your life hell.

Rise above it, take the moral high ground, but waste little time, energy and no money in what is actually a rightful cause.

Your son deserves to play at another club where he should be welcomed, encouraged and appreciated.
The young are the future of all golf clubs.
Some clubs are very insular and not far-sighted. These clubs are to be avoided.

But if they cave in very quickly, stay and make the best of it for the time being.

A good life-lesson for your son that the adult world can sometimes be no different from the primary school playground.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I must confess, I have never been at a club that has allowed juniors to enter adult comps such as this. I also find it rather ironic that words such as “discrimination” are used about a club that has a £5k annual subscription ( and god knows what joining fee as well). If it was a pay and play, or your bog standard course I could understand a little more, but at this sort of subscription level I can’t.
Just for a little context, I live in the South East with an Open qualifier about 15 mins from me, and they have a subscription of £3k.
I would suggest the OP and his lad change clubs.