Have you ever played with a known handicap cheat?

[evemccc]

Played a club league match the weekend before last, my PP was lowest handicap so playing off scratch, their low guy received 2 strokes, me 6 and the other opponent 9 I think. I played reasonably well and was probably a couple of strokes under handicap, the lower of the opponents started whinging about my handicap being too high after about 4 holes. We won 7 & 6 and then played out the rest of the 18, on the 17th a long par 5 I decided to try for the green in two from around 250 yards (not a shot I would take on normally but we were just having a knock by then), I hooked a 3 wood OB and he said "now you're protecting your handicap" it's matchplay, no cards are going in! The truth was while I had played slightly better than handicap in the match, he had played 10 or more strokes worse than his, much easier for the ego for him to imply he had lost to an incorrect handicap though!

I had a not dissimilar experience - and I said that “as you (my opponent) know my name, and I’m on the EG app, why don’t you look up my scores for the last 12 months” - I shook his hand after I beat him, but I didn’t say out loud what I was thinking..

 

[Whereditgo]

Did you respond to his comment?

Just laughed and called him a pillock.

 

[AddisonRoad]

Why ridiculous? Happy to say it's unlikley, but ridiculous in what way?

A person's handicap is genuine if they follow the handicapping rules. We may not like that rugby gives 3 points for a penalty and 7 for a converted try, but that's the rules of the game and we choose to play by them. You can't complain afterwards that your try was better than their three penalties.

If they then have the round of their life, or a great day or even a few great days then we should congratulate them, not take the gloss off by implying they are cheating. Especially when it is someone we don't know and can't know their situation. A few great days and their handicap will come down anyway. all of us are only 8 rounds away from scratch! Isn't that the point of playing?

It is horrid to be on the receiving end of such comments and they discourage people from playing and entering competitions.

It is all too common for people to be told their handicap is too high, criticised when they play well in competitions to bring it down, and criticised if they stick to general play rounds to try and bring it down with just an occasional competition. "Not having lessons" seems to be a badge of honour amongst some, and practicing, and even warming up, appears to be regarded by some as cheating.

If someone else wants to win the vice captain's midweek stableford so much that they are going to go to all that effort to cheat the system, then as far as I'm concerned, leave them to it. Most people don't even understand WHS, let alone have worked out how to cheat it.

If I lose a match, or finish down the leaderboard in a comp where someone has had a great round, better than handicap, then well done them. If they've cheated that's a refelction of them, not me, and for them to live with. I don't think most people do.

I am sure it's frustrating for good golfers with low handicaps seeing 10 under handicap win a handicap comps, and so may choose not to play in them. High handicap golfers won't win scratch comps, and so won't play in them. In team competitions if you are a low handicap player, why not approach some of the less experienced high handicap players and offer to pair up? It could make the day more interesting for both.

Agreed. I played a society day recently where someone won with 44 points - seems like some people think this is an unfair score. I play consistently with the person who won, and can honestly say it's the best they've ever played (it was a Personal Best score by a few strokes). It was a completely fair win, yet people will deride it.

 

[Springveldt]

Pairs match play semi final.
I shot 83, one below HC.
Dad - 81, 6 below HC
Opponents both off 22 plus index’s - one shot 1 over back nine…. How can we even compete?! Not in with a chance at all and we’re both playing out of our skin!
I had 2 bogies, 1 double (they made birdie) and parred everything else. Should have been enough.
Joke

Definitely deserving of this thread.

It's matchplay - suck it up.
My partner and I were overwhelming favourites - on paper - to win a round of our Seniors Pairs knockout. Both opponents played out of their skins and took it to extra holes. On the 170-yard par 3 2nd, one of them stuffed his tee shot to 5 feet from the pin, sunk the putt and that was that. His handicap was in the low 30s with a very substantial regular playing history.
That's matchplay.

Suck it up? If both opponents where 22+ index then they were off at least 23 from the yellows and 24 from the whites looking at the course ratings. One of them just went 11 under handicap for 9 holes and you think he should just "suck it up". Don't think I've ever seen a 24 handicapper go +1 for 9 holes and I doubt I ever will.

To put it into perspective, @Bdill93 dad has just shot -6 which according to the charts is a 1 in 323 round for a handicap of 13-21. The chances of a 22+ handicapper shooting -10 is 1650 to 1, the opponent did it in 9 holes.

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html

The opponent is a handicap cheat, some rounds you can believe but someone shooting -11 for 9 holes is just not it.

 

[Swango1980]

Definitely deserving of this thread.


Suck it up? If both opponents where 22+ index then they were off at least 23 from the yellows and 24 from the whites looking at the course ratings. One of them just went 11 under handicap for 9 holes and you think he should just "suck it up". Don't think I've ever seen a 24 handicapper go +1 for 9 holes and I doubt I ever will.

To put it into perspective, @Bdill93 dad has just shot -6 which according to the charts is a 1 in 323 round for a handicap of 13-21. The chances of a 22+ handicapper shooting -10 is 1650 to 1, the opponent did it in 9 holes.

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html

The opponent is a handicap cheat, some rounds you can believe but someone shooting -11 for 9 holes is just not it.

What did the high handicapper have over 18 holes? I know a 30 handicapper that birdied a stroke index 1 hole before. That is, they shot 4 shots better than their handicap for ONE hole. Does that make them a handicap cheat? What about a high handicapper that shoots 10-11 points in 3 holes. Are they cheats? How many good holes would you permit a high handicapper to have, before accusing them of being a cheat?

If you have other evidence that they are a CHEAT (purposely keeping a high handicap), then fair enough. I'm all ears. I'm know there are players out there that do this. However, if you are basing this on just 9 holes of excellent golf, that is harsh on them.

Maybe, just maybe, they were a bit more relaxed in match play, when there is much less stress on blowing up on a hole and trying to string 9-18 good hole scores together. Maybe they managed to sink a birdie or 2, which are like gold dust, and then avoided any horror shows. Maybe the weather was nice, greens putting well, and course playing significantly shorter with a lot of run on the fairways? Or, maybe they were just newcomers to golf, and the system has given them a genuine handicap on a low number of genuine scores, and as they continue to submit more, and improve, it will fall rapidly. In other words, I can think of a lot of good reasons why they could have scored so well, before concluding they are cheats.

 

[Swango1980]

Played a club league match the weekend before last, my PP was lowest handicap so playing off scratch, their low guy received 2 strokes, me 6 and the other opponent 9 I think. I played reasonably well and was probably a couple of strokes under handicap, the lower of the opponents started whinging about my handicap being too high after about 4 holes. We won 7 & 6 and then played out the rest of the 18, on the 17th a long par 5 I decided to try for the green in two from around 250 yards (not a shot I would take on normally but we were just having a knock by then), I hooked a 3 wood OB and he said "now you're protecting your handicap" it's matchplay, no cards are going in! The truth was while I had played slightly better than handicap in the match, he had played 10 or more strokes worse than his, much easier for the ego for him to imply he had lost to an incorrect handicap though!

You should have turned the conversation on its head. Based on the evidence of that round, you should have told their guy he is never a (whatever his handicap was) handicapper, and his handicap should be 10 higher than it was.

 

[Imurg]

With a course handicap of 27, Fragger shot 4 over for the front 9 in a medal a few weeks back...normal service resumed on the back 9 though but it shows it can be done..

 

[Springveldt]

What did the high handicapper have over 18 holes? I know a 30 handicapper that birdied a stroke index 1 hole before. That is, they shot 4 shots better than their handicap for ONE hole. Does that make them a handicap cheat? What about a high handicapper that shoots 10-11 points in 3 holes. Are they cheats? How many good holes would you permit a high handicapper to have, before accusing them of being a cheat?

If you have other evidence that they are a CHEAT (purposely keeping a high handicap), then fair enough. I'm all ears. I'm know there are players out there that do this. However, if you are basing this on just 9 holes of excellent golf, that is harsh on them.

Maybe, just maybe, they were a bit more relaxed in match play, when there is much less stress on blowing up on a hole and trying to string 9-18 good hole scores together. Maybe they managed to sink a birdie or 2, which are like gold dust, and then avoided any horror shows. Maybe the weather was nice, greens putting well, and course playing significantly shorter with a lot of run on the fairways? Or, maybe they were just newcomers to golf, and the system has given them a genuine handicap on a low number of genuine scores, and as they continue to submit more, and improve, it will fall rapidly. In other words, I can think of a lot of good reasons why they could have scored so well, before concluding they are cheats.

I'm just looking at the odds of it happening. 24 handicapper shooting +1 for 9 holes, sorry but they are 24 for a reason and to hold it together for 9 holes, nah. +4, +5 yes I can believe that, it's allowing for a few of bad swings but +1 for 9? Nope, sorry.

Maybe it was a 1 in a tens of thousands of round but the odds are they are more likely cheating their handicap than having that type of round.

I've just checked our Friday Night 9's comp results for this season (16 of them so far) small sample I know but the highest winning score has been 24 a few times. There are instances of guys off 20 shooting +5 and one of someone who was off 16 shooting +2. Haven't ever seen someone have 29 points for 9.

 

[RichA]

I'm just looking at the odds of it happening. 24 handicapper shooting +1 for 9 holes, sorry but they are 24 for a reason and to hold it together for 9 holes, nah. +4, +5 yes I can believe that, it's allowing for a few of bad swings but +1 for 9? Nope, sorry.

Maybe it was a 1 in a tens of thousands of round but the odds are they are more likely cheating their handicap than having that type of round.

I've just checked our Friday Night 9's comp results for this season (16 of them so far) small sample I know but the highest winning score has been 24 a few times. There are instances of guys off 20 shooting +5 and one of someone who was off 16 shooting +2. Haven't ever seen someone have 29 points for 9.

I believe it can happen.
A year ago I played in a comp while having a HI of 19 and never having broken 90. In a round that included +4 shots for 2 lost balls I carded 82. It could easily have been 78. I played the last 10 holes in 1 over par. It's a feat I haven't come close to repeating.
A couple of people made comments until they realised it was a scratch comp.
You need to see someone's full history and see them play before you can justifiably accuse them of cheating.

 

[Swango1980]

I'm just looking at the odds of it happening. 24 handicapper shooting +1 for 9 holes, sorry but they are 24 for a reason and to hold it together for 9 holes, nah. +4, +5 yes I can believe that, it's allowing for a few of bad swings but +1 for 9? Nope, sorry.

Maybe it was a 1 in a tens of thousands of round but the odds are they are more likely cheating their handicap than having that type of round.

I've just checked our Friday Night 9's comp results for this season (16 of them so far) small sample I know but the highest winning score has been 24 a few times. There are instances of guys off 20 shooting +5 and one of someone who was off 16 shooting +2. Haven't ever seen someone have 29 points for 9.

I'm not denying that there is a good chance their handicap is too high for their current ability, but I'd still like a lot more conclusive evidence before having any confidence of using the word cheating. If it was me, and someone had that sort of score against me, my curiosity would get the better of me. I'd look to see if I could find their handicap record on MyEG and see how regularly they post scores. Do they play in club comps. Do they play in regular match play comps. I'd have probably asked them, congratulating them on how they played and they'll get a cut in no time, and asking how often they play, etc.

Did you do any of that? If they never played in club comps except for those not counting towards handicap (e.g. match play), and played a lot of team Open comps, then there may be a bit more info to suggest they could be keeping it higher for those comps.

 

[Springveldt]

I believe it can happen.
A year ago I played in a comp while having a HI of 19 and never having broken 90. In a round that included +4 shots for 2 lost balls I carded 82. It could easily have been 78. I played the last 10 holes in 1 over par. It's a feat I haven't come close to repeating.
A couple of people made comments until they realised it was a scratch comp.
You need to see someone's full history and see them play before you can justifiably accuse them of cheating.

I'm not denying that there is a good chance their handicap is too high for their current ability, but I'd still like a lot more conclusive evidence before having any confidence of using the word cheating. If it was me, and someone had that sort of score against me, my curiosity would get the better of me. I'd look to see if I could find their handicap record on MyEG and see how regularly they post scores. Do they play in club comps. Do they play in regular match play comps. I'd have probably asked them, congratulating them on how they played and they'll get a cut in no time, and asking how often they play, etc.

Did you do any of that? If they never played in club comps except for those not counting towards handicap (e.g. match play), and played a lot of team Open comps, then there may be a bit more info to suggest they could be keeping it higher for those comps.

Soon to play against 2 in pairs matchplay..

Both guys HI's are above 20 - no cards in the system for over 12 months and yet both shot in the 70's in their last match against two people I know well and trust.... We're going to get battered

This is why I said they were cheating. I remembered @Bdill93 post from earlier in the thread about him about to play a doubles match against people who had hardly any cards in and he called the match exactly even with his partner having the kind of round you have maybe once in a couple of seasons.

 

[KenL]

I believe it can happen.
A year ago I played in a comp while having a HI of 19 and never having broken 90. In a round that included +4 shots for 2 lost balls I carded 82. It could easily have been 78. I played the last 10 holes in 1 over par. It's a feat I haven't come close to repeating.
A couple of people made comments until they realised it was a scratch comp.
You need to see someone's full history and see them play before you can justifiably accuse them of cheating.

Played 10 holes in 1 over - you ARE off the wrong hcp.
Your hcp should be a measure of your best (better) golf and not ignore your potential.
I recently looked at my record.
Only in 3 of my last 20 scores did I play to my playing hcp.
I cannot remember ever scoring more than 40 stableford points.

 

[pendodave]

Played 10 holes in 1 over - you ARE off the wrong hcp.
Your hcp should be a measure of your best (better) golf and not ignore your potential.
I recently looked at my record.
Only in 3 of my last 20 scores did I play to my playing hcp.
I cannot remember ever scoring more than 40 stableford points.

In my last 20, 4 have been under (by a maximum of 4 shots), 2 have been level and 14 have been over. I suspect this (and yours) is pretty normal for competent players. Once we're out beyond a shot a hole, it's the wild west baybee.

 

[Backache]

Definitely deserving of this thread.


Suck it up? If both opponents where 22+ index then they were off at least 23 from the yellows and 24 from the whites looking at the course ratings. One of them just went 11 under handicap for 9 holes and you think he should just "suck it up". Don't think I've ever seen a 24 handicapper go +1 for 9 holes and I doubt I ever will.

To put it into perspective, @Bdill93 dad has just shot -6 which according to the charts is a 1 in 323 round for a handicap of 13-21. The chances of a 22+ handicapper shooting -10 is 1650 to 1, the opponent did it in 9 holes.

If a golf club has approx 800 members playing once a week you will expect a 1650 to 1 outcome once a fortnight in a club.

Long odds events happen fairly frequently if there are enough chances of them to happen.

I suspect that the new handicap system is taking a bit of adjustment still.
There are a lot of people new to golf or returning to golf at the moment since the Pandemic.
New handicaps are inevitably less stable as there are fewer data points and sometimes people with a natural sporting ability improve rapidly.
.

 

[RichA]

Played 10 holes in 1 over - you ARE off the wrong hcp.
Your hcp should be a measure of your best (better) golf and not ignore your potential.
I recently looked at my record.
Only in 3 of my last 20 scores did I play to my playing hcp.
I cannot remember ever scoring more than 40 stableford points.

But I was +10 after the first 8 holes of my wonder round.
In a comp a week earlier, I went round in 102 for 26 points.
After being cut following the 82, it was 4 months and about 36 rounds of golf until the next time I played to my HI.
Golfers who are consistent underestimate how inconsistent us bogey golfers are capable of being - in either direction.

 

[KenL]

But I was +10 after the first 8 holes of my wonder round.
In a comp a week earlier, I went round in 102 for 26 points.
After being cut following the 82, it was 4 months and about 36 rounds of golf until the next time I played to my HI.
Golfers who are consistent underestimate how inconsistent us bogey golfers are capable of being - in either direction.

True, but in every comp there are golfers like you having a "wonder round" that gives everyone with a lowish hcp zero chance of winning.

 

[Springveldt]

If a golf club has approx 800 members playing once a week you will expect a 1650 to 1 outcome once a fortnight in a club.

Long odds events happen fairly frequently if there are enough chances of them to happen.

I suspect that the new handicap system is taking a bit of adjustment still.
There are a lot of people new to golf or returning to golf at the moment since the Pandemic.
New handicaps are inevitably less stable as there are fewer data points and sometimes people with a natural sporting ability improve rapidly.
.

That 1650/1 chance was for handicaps 22-30 range. It obviously increases dramatically as you get lower in handicap. 13-21 handicap is 37000/1, 0-5 is 125000/1.

Obviously longer odds happen more frequently with more chances but as I said later, the guy in question was probably -11 after 9 holes and had shot in the 70's in the previous round while being off of 23 or 24. According the the link I provided that's got 4 stars as the odds, so basically incalculable.

 

[Crow]

True, but in every comp there are golfers like you having a "wonder round" that gives everyone with a lowish hcp zero chance of winning.

Interesting, please check the results of your club's handicap competitions for this year and report back with the handicap of the winning player.

 

[KenL]

Interesting, please check the results of your club's handicap competitions for this year and report back with the handicap of the winning player.

I've said before that "my" club does not seem to have too much of this type of problem. But, that is not what I see reported on here.

 

[RichA]

True, but in every comp there are golfers like you having a "wonder round" that gives everyone with a lowish hcp zero chance of winning.

My pal with HI 5 has won a couple of Stablefords this year. Most seem to be won by those in the 10-20 range. We're a small club with only about 200-300 members. Most of us know each other, so nobody is likely to attempt banditry - they wouldn't get away with it.
As has already been suggested, a big-hitting, sporty but inconsistent mid-high handicapper is capable of shooting 10-15 under handicap once in a blue moon. A low handicapper is unlikely to ever come close to that. I guess that's the point of having divisions.