England Golf and General Play Scores

[Backsticks]

So whilst you continue to protect your 'Match-head on' HI you'll find that folk with a far more rounded 'HI for all occasions' are leaving you behind competitively. It's recreational, remember.
If you're playing to the rules..... stick the cards in like the majority do...... leisure golf with gimmies & free drops, then you can't!

The majority most certainly do not (globally maybe, but in the UK, or my, club. Its still an exception).
They dont have more rounded handicaps, they have less precise handicaps. Any many of them are spoiling handicap competition, because they no longer have competition 'tuned' HIs.
My HI is more honest by not putting in cards for all rounds.

 

[Backsticks]

Are you a right handed golfer, that plays left handed socially? Just curious why your handicap would be significantly better in competition rounds. 5 to 10 shots is massive

Nothing exceptional. Other than I take such rounds very casually. Sometimes I want to make an effort - in a competition. Sometimes I dont. Intent, motivation, focus, make a huge difference to ones score. But for many rounds, the score isnt everything. Lost a ball you expected to find ? Just play on, rather than go back to the tee. Ball didnt carry the water ? Drop one and hit again even if its more advantageous to take relief up a the stream - just because I want to try to carry it. Ball in the rough? Its wet, and I dont really want to wander around in it and get my trousers wet even though I may well find it, so walk on. Measure two club lengths and go through the procedure to take a penalty drop ? No, just drag it out of the bush with a club and hit it. Etc. Hole out short putts ? No, play gimmies. (although I understand they are part of the heritage ethos and fine for GP cards in WHS, so I guess they are OK).

 

[2blue]

The majority most certainly do not (globally maybe, but in the UK, or my, club. Its still an exception).
They dont have more rounded handicaps, they have less precise handicaps. Any many of them are spoiling handicap competition, because they no longer have competition 'tuned' HIs.
My HI is more honest by not putting in cards for all rounds.

Certainly have done at my place during the past 12 months according to the WHS Platform reports I've just run -
Competition rounds - 2,775
General Play Rounds - 3,027
Reports might also show the same at yours or are you just going on the folk you play with?

 

[nickjdavis]

Certainly have done at my place during the past 12 months according to the WHS Platform reports I've just run -
Competition rounds - 2,775
General Play Rounds - 3,027
Reports might also show the same at yours or are you just going on the folk you play with?

In 2023 we saw 2063 competition rounds and 5560 general play rounds.

What is plainly obvious though is that there is an inverse correlation between players playing comp rounds v general play rounds...80% of GP rounds are submitted by players who are responsible for only 15% of competition rounds.

The average Competition Score Differential is 23.2.
The average General Play Score Differential is 23.1

 

[IanM]

Interesting numbers.

I'm suprised by the ratios. I wonder if our general manager will share ours?

 

[SteveJay]

Certainly have done at my place during the past 12 months according to the WHS Platform reports I've just run -
Competition rounds - 2,775
General Play Rounds - 3,027
Reports might also show the same at yours or are you just going on the folk you play with?

But surely that doesn't indicate the majority are putting in GP cards does it?

The missing data point is how many general play tee times were used over the year.

Ignoring the fact that both competitions and GP card submission will probably be limited to 7-8 months of the year), 2,775 competition rounds/cards equates to 53 per week. Normal tee times, even for those same 7-8 months will be significantly higher (we have 70 slots per day even at this time of the year).

It looks to me like GP cards are only submitted for a relatively small percentage of tee times. To support your statement there would need to be almost as many competition tee times as there are casual golf tee times over the year, which clearly isn't the case.

 

[Swango1980]

Certainly have done at my place during the past 12 months according to the WHS Platform reports I've just run -
Competition rounds - 2,775
General Play Rounds - 3,027
Reports might also show the same at yours or are you just going on the folk you play with?

But what would the data be on individual golfers? All 3027 GP scores might have been submitted by only a total of 50 golfers, thus it would still be true most golfers don't submit GP scores. Or even if most have done at some point, the majority of rounds they play they do not.

I'd imagine the number of tee times throughout the year, the vast majority are social rounds rather than comps. So, I'd expect the vast majority of handicap scores to be GP scores, but in your example GP scores are only a bit higher.

Also, how many of those GP scores are from organised fiddles in your club? I'd probably class them as Competition rounds, as those playing are effectively agreeing to play in a comp organised my members outside of an officially run club comp.

 

[2blue]

But what would the data be on individual golfers? All 3027 GP scores might have been submitted by only a total of 50 golfers, thus it would still be true most golfers don't submit GP scores. Or even if most have done at some point, the majority of rounds they play they do not.

I'd imagine the number of tee times throughout the year, the vast majority are social rounds rather than comps. So, I'd expect the vast majority of handicap scores to be GP scores, but in your example GP scores are only a bit higher.

Also, how many of those GP scores are from organised fiddles in your club? I'd probably class them as Competition rounds, as those playing are effectively agreeing to play in a comp organised my members outside of an officially run club comp.

Yeah, I'll give you that.
We have 5 days a week to engage in Club Comps. The only 'fiddle' is on a Sun am involving from 6 to 10 guys where GP's are submitted.

 

[Swango1980]

Yeah, I'll give you that.
We have 5 days a week to engage in Club Comps. The only 'fiddle' is on a Sun am involving from 6 to 10 guys where GP's are submitted.

Again, it is difficult to compare your data without knowing how many players play socially and competitively. Even if comps are on 5 days, I assume they are not on ALL day. The rest of the day will have many social rounds, plus the other 2 days.

And even if your 1 fiddle is played 50 weeks a year, average 8 players in it, you could put those 400 rounds in the competition section rather than the social golf section, which already tips the overall number into "Competition Round" in a players mindset

 

[Swango1980]

Certainly have done at my place during the past 12 months according to the WHS Platform reports I've just run -
Competition rounds - 2,775
General Play Rounds - 3,027
Reports might also show the same at yours or are you just going on the folk you play with?

On further reflection to looking at the numbers alone, I'm not sure if your numbers can necessarily come to the conclusion that most submit GP scores, unless you are a member of an extremely quiet golf course.

If your club runs 5 competitions a week, 50 weeks a year, that is 250 competitions. If 2775 Competition Scores are being entered per year, that is on average 11 players per comp. Even if comps were only 6 months of the year, it is still only 22 per comp, and many other tee times available per day for social golf.

Looking at out booking system, we have 74 slots available per day at the moment, I suspect that will be over 90 in the summer (last tee time just before 16:30 at moment). If we had 74 slots per day available for 6 months, and 90 available for 6 months, that is 29,848 slots throughout the year. If the average group was a 3 ball, then that is an average capacity for nearly 90,000 golfers to play a round of golf through the year.

If your course was closed to submitting cards for 6 months of the year, the capacity falls to 45,000. And even if some slots are empty per day, and you account for 1 and 2 balls and the 2775 that submit comp scores, I'd still expect there to be 30,000+ rounds to be played by social golfers. So how come only 3,027 are being submitted as GP scores, of which at least a few hundred are actually from an organized fiddle anyway?

I only started thinking of the numbers when I thought about my own club. We have busy periods, but it is millionaires golf after lunch at any time of year. A huge amount of empty slots today (winter, wet course, etc). We still have 39 social golfers booked in today. That will obviously be much much higher at weekends, and in the summer. Yet, even if we only ever had an average of 39 golfers for 364 days a year (I'll exclude Xmas), that would be 14,196 social scores. If most social scores were submitted, then at my club I'd expect well over 7,000 GP scores. And if you account for fact that the course will be miles busier in summer and weekends, I guess the expectation for GP scores would actually need to be well over 15-20,000. Hence, if you are only getting 3,037 GP scores per year, , then you must be so quiet that you are only getting about 15 social golfers per day playing your course?

 

[Bdill93]

On further reflection to looking at the numbers alone, I'm not sure if your numbers can necessarily come to the conclusion that most submit GP scores, unless you are a member of an extremely quiet golf course.

If your club runs 5 competitions a week, 50 weeks a year, that is 250 competitions. If 2775 Competition Scores are being entered per year, that is on average 11 players per comp. Even if comps were only 6 months of the year, it is still only 22 per comp, and many other tee times available per day for social golf.

Looking at out booking system, we have 74 slots available per day at the moment, I suspect that will be over 90 in the summer (last tee time just before 16:30 at moment). If we had 74 slots per day available for 6 months, and 90 available for 6 months, that is 29,848 slots throughout the year. If the average group was a 3 ball, then that is an average capacity for nearly 90,000 golfers to play a round of golf through the year.

If your course was closed to submitting cards for 6 months of the year, the capacity falls to 45,000. And even if some slots are empty per day, and you account for 1 and 2 balls and the 2775 that submit comp scores, I'd still expect there to be 30,000+ rounds to be played by social golfers. So how come only 3,027 are being submitted as GP scores, of which at least a few hundred are actually from an organized fiddle anyway?

I only started thinking of the numbers when I thought about my own club. We have busy periods, but it is millionaires golf after lunch at any time of year. A huge amount of empty slots today (winter, wet course, etc). We still have 39 social golfers booked in today. That will obviously be much much higher at weekends, and in the summer. Yet, even if we only ever had an average of 39 golfers for 364 days a year (I'll exclude Xmas), that would be 14,196 social scores. If most social scores were submitted, then at my club I'd expect well over 7,000 GP scores. And if you account for fact that the course will be miles busier in summer and weekends, I guess the expectation for GP scores would actually need to be well over 15-20,000. Hence, if you are only getting 3,037 GP scores per year, , then you must be so quiet that you are only getting about 15 social golfers per day playing your course?

Pretty much what I was thinking too.

Our club has 2 comps a week, weds and sat with approx 50 places per comp (bit more at the weekend and a bit less in the week) - that's 100 scores per week and with seniors comps 1 a month on Tuesday you're probably close to 5000 scores purely from comps a year.

Our comps only have a 2 hour tee window 8-10am after which its all GP bookings, I reckon you're talking well over 10,000 of those from our club a year.

 

[Backsticks]

Certainly have done at my place during the past 12 months according to the WHS Platform reports I've just run -
Competition rounds - 2,775
General Play Rounds - 3,027
Reports might also show the same at yours or are you just going on the folk you play with?

More or less just on folk I play with. Who would, like me be more or less weekly comp players. But also on bar chat, and chat with one member of our hc committee I know.

Certainly among the experienced long term players here, and despite knowing its fully kosher and promoted to do so, there would still be strong scepticism about the motivation of anyone putting in GP scores on any frequent basis. Now and again, probably regarded as OK if for some reason the player hasnt been able to play in cometitions. Again, based in the past, but similar mentality as supplementary scores of old.
If playing a casual round, and I announced on the first that i was putting in a GP, there would be confused looks, thats for sure. Not that they dont know what it is. More, why, whats his game, I suppose we cant refuse, but... whats that all about ?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

If playing a casual round, and I announced on the first that i was putting in a GP, there would be confused looks, thats for sure. Not that they dont know what it is. More, why, whats his game, I suppose we cant refuse, but... whats that all about ?

That's an old fashioned mentality though, one they are trying to change. It's been ingrained over the years, will take a real sea change for it to alter. Probably needs each club to push on this, change the thinking.

I should add, I rarely put in GP cards. Not to avoid them, it's just my default thinking doesn't include them at this point. Maybe it will change one day but at the moment I need to unlearn this behaviour as well (saying that, I'm quite happy as I am)

 

[D-S]

Certainly have done at my place during the past 12 months according to the WHS Platform reports I've just run -
Competition rounds - 2,775
General Play Rounds - 3,027
Reports might also show the same at yours or are you just going on the folk you play with?

Your club therefore averages just over 8 GP scores per day.
You would need less than 17 golfers rounds per day for there to be a majority of players submitting GP scores.
I would hazard a guess that less than 10% of the rounds being played on the course per day are being submitted for GP cards.
Although this is considerably more than the old Supplementary Scores, it is hardly a golfing revolution.

 

[wjemather]

On further reflection to looking at the numbers alone, I'm not sure if your numbers can necessarily come to the conclusion that most submit GP scores, unless you are a member of an extremely quiet golf course.

If your club runs 5 competitions a week, 50 weeks a year, that is 250 competitions. If 2775 Competition Scores are being entered per year, that is on average 11 players per comp. Even if comps were only 6 months of the year, it is still only 22 per comp, and many other tee times available per day for social golf.

Looking at out booking system, we have 74 slots available per day at the moment, I suspect that will be over 90 in the summer (last tee time just before 16:30 at moment). If we had 74 slots per day available for 6 months, and 90 available for 6 months, that is 29,848 slots throughout the year. If the average group was a 3 ball, then that is an average capacity for nearly 90,000 golfers to play a round of golf through the year.

If your course was closed to submitting cards for 6 months of the year, the capacity falls to 45,000. And even if some slots are empty per day, and you account for 1 and 2 balls and the 2775 that submit comp scores, I'd still expect there to be 30,000+ rounds to be played by social golfers. So how come only 3,027 are being submitted as GP scores, of which at least a few hundred are actually from an organized fiddle anyway?

I only started thinking of the numbers when I thought about my own club. We have busy periods, but it is millionaires golf after lunch at any time of year. A huge amount of empty slots today (winter, wet course, etc). We still have 39 social golfers booked in today. That will obviously be much much higher at weekends, and in the summer. Yet, even if we only ever had an average of 39 golfers for 364 days a year (I'll exclude Xmas), that would be 14,196 social scores. If most social scores were submitted, then at my club I'd expect well over 7,000 GP scores. And if you account for fact that the course will be miles busier in summer and weekends, I guess the expectation for GP scores would actually need to be well over 15-20,000. Hence, if you are only getting 3,037 GP scores per year, , then you must be so quiet that you are only getting about 15 social golfers per day playing your course?

Probably best not to assume that all comps (or indeed all rounds played) are individual strokeplay and/or acceptable for handicapping.

 

[LincolnShep]

Some people have embraced EG's new tech that makes it easy to enter GP scores. I include myself in this group and I need a good reason to not enter a score, my default position is everything goes on to my record.
Other people (like Backsticks, for example) prefer to only enter their competition rounds - for the reasons that he's explained in his posts.

I'm not bothered which is right and which is wrong as that's been done to death. It does seem that these two different approaches will lead to two different handicaps. I'm not talking about anyone trying to fiddle their handicaps, just people playing by the rules and entering honest cards. Is it a false assumption that the people following Backsticks' philosophy will find themselves disadvantaged when playing against the "enter everything" group?

 

[Swango1980]

Probably best not to assume that all comps (or indeed all rounds played) are individual strokeplay and/or acceptable for handicapping.

Of course, I wouldn't assume that as a very general point. However, in the context of the conversation 2blue said:

"We have 5 days a week to engage in Club Comps. The only 'fiddle' is on a Sun am involving from 6 to 10 guys where GP's are submitted."

The implication seemed to be that there were a lot of Competitions open to members to submit handicap scores, and therefore it made the fact that more overall rounds being submitted as GP scores was a stronger indication that golfers mainly submitted their GP scores.

If many of those competitions were not acceptable for handicap for any reason, then it certainly would not be correct to imply that members have 5 competitions a week available to them to submit handicap scores.

 

[Swango1980]

Some people have embraced EG's new tech that makes it easy to enter GP scores. I include myself in this group and I need a good reason to not enter a score, my default position is everything goes on to my record.
Other people (like Backsticks, for example) prefer to only enter their competition rounds - for the reasons that he's explained in his posts.

I'm not bothered which is right and which is wrong as that's been done to death. It does seem that these two different approaches will lead to two different handicaps. I'm not talking about anyone trying to fiddle their handicaps, just people playing by the rules and entering honest cards. Is it a false assumption that the people following Backsticks' philosophy will find themselves disadvantaged when playing against the "enter everything" group?

Mind you, if your home club is based on the other side of the country, it is probably easier to embrace MyEG

 

[wjemather]

Of course, I wouldn't assume that as a very general point. However, in the context of the conversation 2blue said:

"We have 5 days a week to engage in Club Comps. The only 'fiddle' is on a Sun am involving from 6 to 10 guys where GP's are submitted."

The implication seemed to be that there were a lot of Competitions open to members to submit handicap scores, and therefore it made the fact that more overall rounds being submitted as GP scores was a stronger indication that golfers mainly submitted their GP scores.

If many of those competitions were not acceptable for handicap for any reason, then it certainly would not be correct to imply that members have 5 competitions a week available to them to submit handicap scores.

But you did.

 

[Swango1980]

But you did.

Again, you are completely oblivious to context. You should try and read a few posts between forumers, rather than jump in on your high horse when you see one comment.

As I said, 2blue raised the point in the context members had plenty of competitions available at the club to submit handicap scores. In the context of that conversation, I took 2blues word for it and worked from there.

if you are so adamant to make a point that doesn't need to be made, then reply to 2blue post. Tell 2blue that he shouldn't assume that all 5 weekly comps can be used for handicapping, as 2blue was the one who initiated it.

Clearly, if someone randomly said "we have 5 competitions a week" with no other context, then it should be obvious I wouldn't automatically assume "ohhh, that is good, they have 5 competitions a week where they can submit handicap scores". Especially true in my case, because at my club ALL competitions at my club from November to April are unacceptable for handicap (Scrambles, Other Team Formats, Irons Only, etc)