CONGU, WHS and Rule E5

[Swango1980]

So every adjustment is an average of your best last 8?

Average of best 8 from last 20 rounds (caveating that, as Rulefan said, there is a memory of good scores before this range of 20 scores, if it is within a certain timeframe, potentially 1 year, of last card). However, many golfers I know post less than 20 scores in a full year, so I guess that means they will automatically forget good scores outside the range of your last 20. So, if you happened to be in really good form when you posted your 20, 19, 18, etc rounds ago from your last, then as soon as you start posting more recent scores, you will possibly be removing these good rounds. So, in the example of my mate, his handicap index jumped up more than 1.0 in one round. In your example, if you post 3 very bad rounds in a row, your handicap could potentially go up very quickly if you are removing very good rounds from over a year ago.

 

[Jacko_G]

Average of best 8 from last 20 rounds (caveating that, as Rulefan said, there is a memory of good scores before this range of 20 scores, if it is within a certain timeframe, potentially 1 year, of last card). However, many golfers I know post less than 20 scores in a full year, so I guess that means they will automatically forget good scores outside the range of your last 20. So, if you happened to be in really good form when you posted your 20, 19, 18, etc rounds ago from your last, then as soon as you start posting more recent scores, you will possibly be removing these good rounds. So, in the example of my mate, his handicap index jumped up more than 1.0 in one round. In your example, if you post 3 very bad rounds in a row, your handicap could potentially go up very quickly if you are removing very good rounds from over a year ago.

So if I get an initial index of 8.0 (whatever) and I have a gross 76 in the medal it may not really effect my index as my 20th score was a 75?

Bloody yanks have a lot to answer for! I thought this was supposed to be a simplified method? Who is going to work out your average 8 best scores?

 

[Jacko_G]

Only benefit of this system that I see is that I can submit loads more cards/rounds. Being a shift worker with only 1 weekend off a month isn't ideal for medal golf.

 

[rulefan]

Who is going to work out your average 8 best scores?

The computer. It will be available to you the following morning on any available internet enable device.

 

[rulefan]

Only benefit of this system that I see is that I can submit loads more cards/rounds. Being a shift worker with only 1 weekend off a month isn't ideal for medal golf.

Why can't you submit them now?

 

[Swango1980]

So if I get an initial index of 8.0 (whatever) and I have a gross 76 in the medal it may not really effect my index as my 20th score was a 75?

Bloody yanks have a lot to answer for! I thought this was supposed to be a simplified method? Who is going to work out your average 8 best scores?

Yes, I believe so. You could shout a 76, but get rid of a 68 (depending on how long ago that was scored), and your handicap actually go up, not down.

I've done some calcs today to compare course handicap (off whites) with current handicap for myself and 14 other members at my club. 4 members, including me, will have a course handicap -0.4 lower than current handicap. Everyone else will have a course handicap higher than their current handicap. Most of these are less than 1.0 higher. However, 4 members will have a course handicap 1.7 higher than their current handicap and 1 member will have a course handicap 4.3 higher than current handicap (he recently got chopped to 17.5 after an ESR, but his WHS course handicap would be 21.8). All members are players that have played regularly, and I've only included qualifying scores (off yellows and whites, taking into account the different CR and Slope ratings for both).

Been an eye opener, but especially when I realised that there is potential for pretty quick increases if you happen to be removing very good rounds when you post more recent poorer rounds, and the very good rounds are outside the "memory" timeframe

 

[rulefan]

Average of best 8 from last 20 rounds (caveating that, as Rulefan said, there is a memory of good scores before this range of 20 scores, if it is within a certain timeframe, potentially 1 year, of last card). However, many golfers I know post less than 20 scores in a full year, so I guess that means they will automatically forget good scores outside the range of your last 20. So, if you happened to be in really good form when you posted your 20, 19, 18, etc rounds ago from your last, then as soon as you start posting more recent scores, you will possibly be removing these good rounds. So, in the example of my mate, his handicap index jumped up more than 1.0 in one round. In your example, if you post 3 very bad rounds in a row, your handicap could potentially go up very quickly if you are removing very good rounds from over a year ago.

See attached

 

[Jacko_G]

Why can't you submit them now?

You are correct, just not in the habit of doing so. I think the new system will bring a new "mindset" and a kick up the backside to submit more cards.

 

[Swango1980]

See attached

Cheers. I'll slot that into my handicap sec folder and digest it.

 

[duncan mackie]

You are correct, just not in the habit of doing so. I think the new system will bring a new "mindset" and a kick up the backside to submit more cards.

Don't get that at all; systems don't change people's mindset - and the underlying principles of the handicap system haven't changed at all.

 

[Jacko_G]

Don't get that at all; systems don't change people's mindset - and the underlying principles of the handicap system haven't changed at all.

A while new concept to handicapping in this country and you don't think the underlying principles have changed?

This is a huge change and one I'm not convinced is for the better so I think we'll agree to disagree.

 

[rulefan]

A while new concept to handicapping in this country and you don't think the underlying principles have changed?

This is a huge change and one I'm not convinced is for the better so I think we'll agree to disagree.

I'm not clear on why you say returning more pre-declared social cards is a huge change compared to supplementary scores.
There are only two really huge changes. Slope and Averaging.

 

[duncan mackie]

A while new concept to handicapping in this country and you don't think the underlying principles have changed?

This is a huge change and one I'm not convinced is for the better so I think we'll agree to disagree.

Whilst I have no issue disagreeing, I find it fascinating that you see the changes as 'a whole new concept'.
I see only one change to the concept itself - basically an intention that handicapping should have an increased element of 'form' over the previous focus on underlying capability, especially with regard to increases (although the latest change there was to provide an increased focus on form there via AR and the two override elements ESR and 'consistent buffer failure increases' ).
However, even the averaging has been tweaked from the USGA to more closely match the previous CONGU alogirythm.
Slope isn't a concept change; it's a practical application of the existing concept of course rating. Courses have been rated against their layout and set up and a set of playing parameters for many decades. The change is that it has been accepted that using a scratch golfer parameter to handicap an 18 handicapper is fundamentally flawed, and cannot subsequently be levelled through stroke allowances. So a CR is now established for this golfer as well as the scratch one - and all the various processes and calculations follow naturally. The concept of handicapping to a course rating remains, but the application has been improved.

So we have one change, which is a natural extension to the most recent moves under the existing CONGU system whereby players whose form shifts significantly from their previously established (proven) capabilities will move further/faster.
One improvement in the better implementation of course ratings to base handicaps on.

Whole new concept? - think you are reading the marketing hype 🤔

 

[Swango1980]

As I get more and more into the workings of the WHS, I'll admit that I'm beginning to understand and believe in some concepts better than I had originally. Although, I still have some concerns.

One of the things I find interesting is that, it seems that one of the general thoughts about it from the standard golfer is that, you will get more shots at "harder" courses and less shots at "easier" courses. Therefore, I think golfers will believe that they are always having to play to 36 points to play to handicap, wherever the course they play, and their adjusted handicap will ensure that they are capable no matter the difficulty of the course (I know many wrongly think that now anyway, as they don't understand SSS). However, this is not strictly true. Playing off our whites is much harder than our yellows, there are quite a number of holes where it adds a lot of extra distance, and even means on a couple you need to carry 210 over a dyke off the tee (rather than about 120 off yellow), and the dyke is about 230 short of the par 4 greens. Those 2 holes alone become par 5's for over 90% of the members when playing off whites. White SSS is 69, Yellow is 67 (which are similar of course to the new Course Ratings). However, with WHS, Slope for the Whites is 133, Yellows 130. So, basically, most golfers will have the same course handicap whether it is whites or yellows (some will play off 1 higher depending on where the decimal point lies when rounding).

So, in reality, Slope is not purely a definition of how hard a course is for all golfers, but how large the relative gap in difficulty is between scratch and bogey golfers? When a member of the club approaches me and asks "why do I have a course handicap of 18 for both the yellow and white tees?", I think that will be a difficult question to answer to their satisfaction. I guess the answer just needs to be similar to what it is now, in that if the CR is 1 lower than par (whites) you are aiming for 37 points to play to handicap, if CR is 3 lower than par (yellows) you are aiming for 39 points? That's fine, but as I said above, I think the perception of most golfers is that the handicap will change to ensure you are always aiming for 36 points. Also, if a player had an Index at my place of 7.0 (our course is often perceived as being relatively easy), their white course handicap would be 8.2. If they went to play at the Hotchkin blue tees at Woodhall Spa (one of the hardest in our county, and highest Slope of 152) they'd play off 9.4 (i.e. 1 extra shot). If a player had an Index of 28.0, then at my place their course handicap would be 33.0, at Woodhall 37.7 (extra 5 shots). So, perception wise, maybe the players with the higher indexes will appreciate the jump in handicap more. However, those with lower indexes might become quite demoralised when playing harder courses, and struggle to see how the handicapping is fair? I just hope I have an explanation that is easy to understand, especially when we go to away days and higher handicappers are getting even MORE shots than usual, which can be a sore point at the best of times for a handful of low handicappers.

 

[2blue]

As I get more and more into the workings of the WHS, I'll admit that I'm beginning to understand and believe in some concepts better than I had originally. Although, I still have some concerns.

One of the things I find interesting is that, it seems that one of the general thoughts about it from the standard golfer is that, you will get more shots at "harder" courses and less shots at "easier" courses. Therefore, I think golfers will believe that they are always having to play to 36 points to play to handicap, wherever the course they play, and their adjusted handicap will ensure that they are capable no matter the difficulty of the course (I know many wrongly think that now anyway, as they don't understand SSS). However, this is not strictly true. Playing off our whites is much harder than our yellows, there are quite a number of holes where it adds a lot of extra distance, and even means on a couple you need to carry 210 over a dyke off the tee (rather than about 120 off yellow), and the dyke is about 230 short of the par 4 greens. Those 2 holes alone become par 5's for over 90% of the members when playing off whites. White SSS is 69, Yellow is 67 (which are similar of course to the new Course Ratings). However, with WHS, Slope for the Whites is 133, Yellows 130. So, basically, most golfers will have the same course handicap whether it is whites or yellows (some will play off 1 higher depending on where the decimal point lies when rounding).

So, in reality, Slope is not purely a definition of how hard a course is for all golfers, but how large the relative gap in difficulty is between scratch and bogey golfers? When a member of the club approaches me and asks "why do I have a course handicap of 18 for both the yellow and white tees?", I think that will be a difficult question to answer to their satisfaction. I guess the answer just needs to be similar to what it is now, in that if the CR is 1 lower than par (whites) you are aiming for 37 points to play to handicap, if CR is 3 lower than par (yellows) you are aiming for 39 points? That's fine, but as I said above, I think the perception of most golfers is that the handicap will change to ensure you are always aiming for 36 points. Also, if a player had an Index at my place of 7.0 (our course is often perceived as being relatively easy), their white course handicap would be 8.2. If they went to play at the Hotchkin blue tees at Woodhall Spa (one of the hardest in our county, and highest Slope of 152) they'd play off 9.4 (i.e. 1 extra shot). If a player had an Index of 28.0, then at my place their course handicap would be 33.0, at Woodhall 37.7 (extra 5 shots). So, perception wise, maybe the players with the higher indexes will appreciate the jump in handicap more. However, those with lower indexes might become quite demoralised when playing harder courses, and struggle to see how the handicapping is fair? I just hope I have an explanation that is easy to understand, especially when we go to away days and higher handicappers are getting even MORE shots than usual, which can be a sore point at the best of times for a handful of low handicappers.

Then for your Away Days, playing individual strokeplay, there'd be a further adjustment of 95%.... or am I missing something? (again) Enjoying the discussion.

 

[Swango1980]

Then for your Away Days, playing individual strokeplay, there'd be a further adjustment of 95%.... or am I missing something? (again) Enjoying the discussion.

Yeah, I think it might be 90% for individual strokeplay (medal / Stableford). So, I guess that makes the comparisons as: Index 8 player goes from 7.4 to 8.5, and the Index 28 player from 29.7 to 33.9. So, in this case the lower handicapper got an extra 2 shots (lucky, as the decimal points worked out truly to his advantage, as he really only went up 1.1) and the higher by 4 shots.

It'll be fun. If someone asks your handicap now, it is a straight answer. With WHS if someone asks your handicap, the answer will be more questions, like "what course are we playing? what format are we playing?". You could of course just give the Handicap Index, but it has less meaning than Handicap now probably, because many golfers will never actually play off their Index, it will just be the starting point used in the equation to get your course handicap, followed by your playing handicap.

 

[patricks148]

Yeah, I think it might be 90% for individual strokeplay (medal / Stableford). So, I guess that makes the comparisons as: Index 8 player goes from 7.4 to 8.5, and the Index 28 player from 29.7 to 33.9. So, in this case the lower handicapper got an extra 2 shots (lucky, as the decimal points worked out truly to his advantage, as he really only went up 1.1) and the higher by 4 shots.

It'll be fun. If someone asks your handicap now, it is a straight answer. With WHS if someone asks your handicap, the answer will be more questions, like "what course are we playing? what format are we playing?". You could of course just give the Handicap Index, but it has less meaning than Handicap now probably, because many golfers will never actually play off their Index, it will just be the starting point used in the equation to get your course handicap, followed by your playing handicap.

and it will be much easier and more straightforwards they said......

 

[louise_a]

On the contrary your handicap index will have more meaning, especially in respect of someone elses.

 

[duncan mackie]

and it will be much easier and more straightforwards they said......

In fairness it's the 'tweaks' that are going to cause a lot of the complexities, frustrations and even disappointments....
Removing the reward for excellence from within the calculated handicap (index) as currently under all systems, removal of the focus on returning 'all' scores and, in the CONGU implementation, the caps to free flowing implementation (rigid or review caps).

It's a more complicated but fairer system for handicap golfers - ignore the past, ignore the calculations, just use it.

 

[duncan mackie]

On the contrary your handicap index will have more meaning, especially in respect of someone elses.

Don't understand this bit?

The handicap index has exactly the same meaning as a current handicap does under CONGU.