WHS course rating

[Lord Tyrion]

Or....the most likely result is that I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm just talking rubbish. Mgr is not likely confused. I can't find whatever it is was sent out on our Facebook page....more rubbish on my part.

Your slope rating is 128 off the whites, 2 under the course you mean. Also 9 under the other main course in that vicinity. That surprises me. I wonder if different people rated them?

 

[rulefan]

Your slope rating is 128 off the whites, 2 under the course you mean. Also 9 under the other main course in that vicinity. That surprises me. I wonder if different people rated them?

As has been said many times here. Slope means nothing without the Course Rating.

 

[Mandofred]

Your slope rating is 128 off the whites, 2 under the course you mean. Also 9 under the other main course in that vicinity. That surprises me. I wonder if different people rated them?

This was my point.....I think the ratings are nothing more than a general "this is how I feel" measurement. I "think" (no proof....just twitches) that the ratings will end up being only semi-accurate.....better than nothing? Kind of like judging ice skating....what is good for one judge, isn't so good for another. I just can't see of a perfectly consistent way of judging golf courses accurately.

 

[rulefan]

This was my point.....I think the ratings are nothing more than a general "this is how I feel" measurement. I "think" (no proof....just twitches) that the ratings will end up being only semi-accurate.....better than nothing? Kind of like judging ice skating....what is good for one judge, isn't so good for another. I just can't see of a perfectly consistent way of judging golf courses accurately.

A rating team is made up of 3 or 4 experienced players and trained raters. not one judge.

Have you any experience of Rating? Or even seen the manual. The Introduction says:

Accuracy and consistency are the keys to effective course rating.
A course must first be accurately measured, and the measured yardage must be corrected for factors that affect the playing length, which are roll, changes in elevation, forced lay ups, doglegs, wind, and altitude.
Obstacles that affect playing difficulty must then be evaluated in accordance with established standards. These standards reduce subjectivity in course rating.

Through the collection of extensive empirical data from golfers and golf holes, the factors that affect the difficulty of a golf hole have been evaluated and assigned numerical values that yield an accurate USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating when applied to the entire course.

Rating only rarely involves opinions. There are dozens of measurements that have to be taken and points allocated as a result. eg A simple case - Is this bunker less than 3' deep, between 3' and 5' or over 5'.

 

[Mandofred]

Have you any experience of Rating? Or even seen the manual. The Introduction says:

Accuracy and consistency are the keys to effective course rating.
A course must first be accurately measured, and the measured yardage must be corrected for factors that affect the playing length, which are roll, changes in elevation, forced lay ups, doglegs, wind, and altitude.
Obstacles that affect playing difficulty must then be evaluated in accordance with established standards. These standards reduce subjectivity in course rating.

Through the collection of extensive empirical data from golfers and golf holes, the factors that affect the difficulty of a golf hole have been evaluated and assigned numerical values that yield an accurate USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating when applied to the entire course.

Rating only rarely involves opinions. There are dozens of measurements that have to be taken and points allocated as a result. eg A simple case - Is this bunker less than 3' deep, between 3' and 5' or over 5'.

Did you read the above comment from me about possibly talking rubbish? I think that answers your first sentence.

 

[rulefan]

Did you read the above comment from me about possibly talking rubbish? I think that answers your first sentence.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone admit to such a thing before
I didn't believe it.

 

[Mandofred]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone admit to such a thing before
I didn't believe it.

It still ends up being a bit of ice skating thing though (no....I don't have a fetish for ice skaters).....and I don't see how it can be anything but. Unless you literally take a laser to everything on the course, including grass quality etc etc etc.....ends up being a bit of a "best guess" outcome. It is what it is.......

Lots of my pp think I'm full of .....they are right about half the time.

 

[rulefan]

It still ends up being a bit of ice skating thing though (no....I don't have a fetish for ice skaters).....and I don't see how it can be anything but. ...ends up being a bit of a "best guess" outcome. It is what it is.......

Lots of my pp think I'm full of .....they are right about half the time.

Unless you literally take a laser to everything on the course, including grass quality etc etc etc..

You're not far off there. Inter alia, they laser all distances and check with the greenkeeper the summer mower settings for fairways, light and medium rough, check the greenkeeper's target stimp.

 

[Mandofred]

Unless you literally take a laser to everything on the course, including grass quality etc etc etc..

You're not far off there. Inter alia, they laser all distances and check with the greenkeeper the summer mower settings for fairways, light and medium rough, check the greenkeeper's target stimp.

Not arguing here, just wondering. I've only played our course and not the other local courses (yes, I'm really boring). From what I have been told by lots of people (Hey....it's on the internet, it MUST be true!!), our course was rated easier than a local course that everybody says is easier than Knaresborough. Not sure how accurate my earlier statement was, but I think the Mgr has been rather miffed about the initial rating and has been fighting to get the course re-done..... How does that happen if they are taking such serious care? Serious question....not just whining (which I can do quite well....).

 

[Slab]

Just found the summary of how things have been rated for this neck of the woods, from the full size courses to the little short courses at hotels. Nice to see all tees rated for men and women so you really will be able to use whatever
(lengthwise roughly I think blue would be = to a UK yellow & yellows = UK white)

 

[hairball_89]

Not arguing here, just wondering. I've only played our course and not the other local courses (yes, I'm really boring). From what I have been told by lots of people (Hey....it's on the internet, it MUST be true!!), our course was rated easier than a local course that everybody says is easier than Knaresborough. Not sure how accurate my earlier statement was, but I think the Mgr has been rather miffed about the initial rating and has been fighting to get the course re-done..... How does that happen if they are taking such serious care? Serious question....not just whining (which I can do quite well....).

Presuming you are referring to slope, it's a relative difficulty scale. Your course could just be hard for everyone.

If the course down the road has a low course rating and a sky high slope, it would mean it's a walkover for a scratch player but a nightmare for a bogey (and beyond!) player.

 

[Ethan]

Presuming you are referring to slope, it's a relative difficulty scale. Your course could just be hard for everyone.

If the course down the road has a low course rating and a sky high slope, it would mean it's a walkover for a scratch player but a nightmare for a bogey (and beyond!) player.

This concept can be tricky. If a course was flipping impossible for the scratch player, and pretty much as impossible for the bogey player, the course rating would be very high but the slope would be low. If a course had carries of 240 off every tee but then wide open flat greens, it might be dead easy for the scratch player but impossible for the bogey player and therefore have a lower course rating but a very high slope.

 

[hairball_89]

This concept can be tricky. If a course was flipping impossible for the scratch player, and pretty much as impossible for the bogey player, the course rating would be very high but the slope would be low. If a course had carries of 240 off every tee but then wide open flat greens, it might be dead easy for the scratch player but impossible for the bogey player and therefore have a lower course rating but a very high slope.

Exactly! perfect examples that I couldn't think of when writing my reply!

 

[Mandofred]

I think I'm just going to leave it to all you smarter people to keep the world in order......I don't want to fill up my brain with useful information.

 

[rulefan]

Not arguing here, just wondering. I've only played our course and not the other local courses (yes, I'm really boring). From what I have been told by lots of people (Hey....it's on the internet, it MUST be true!!), our course was rated easier than a local course that everybody says is easier than Knaresborough. Not sure how accurate my earlier statement was, but I think the Mgr has been rather miffed about the initial rating and has been fighting to get the course re-done..... How does that happen if they are taking such serious care? Serious question....not just whining (which I can do quite well....).

I was speaking to team leader this morning who's team rated K'boro and we looked at the ratings. I can confirm there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.
We suspect people are simply not understanding the difference between Course Rating and Slope Rating.

K'boro is rated as follows
..............Par......CR......Slope
White.......72.....73.3.....128
Yellow......72.....72.3.....124
Red(M).....68.....69.7....119

Nearby Harrogate is
White.....69.....71.2....130
Yellow....69......70.7 129

Which do you think is the more difficult? And for which players?

 

[Ethan]

I was speaking to team leader this morning who's team rated K'boro and we looked at the ratings. I can confirm there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.
We suspect people are simply not understanding the difference between Course Rating and Slope Rating.

K'boro is rated as follows
..............Par......CR......Slope
White.......72.....73.3.....128
Yellow......72.....72.3.....124
Red(M).....68.....69.7....119

Nearby Harrogate is
White.....69.....71.2....130
Yellow....69......70.7 129

Which do you think is the more difficult? And for which players?

Each course (and tee) will also have a bogey rating, i.e. a course rating for the 20 handicap. The course rating is the scratch rating. Slope is calculated based on the difference between bogey ratings and course rating, the difference giving an idea of the slope of a graphical relationship for difficulty.

Harrogate has a bogey rating of 95.4 (white tees), Knaresborough 97.0 (white).

So I would say Harrogate is the tougher course, with a higher course and bogey rating relative to par, although Knareborough is slightly more similarly tough for low and higher players, if you see what I mean.

 

[rulefan]

Each course (and tee) will also have a bogey rating, i.e. a course rating for the 20 handicap. The course rating is the scratch rating. Slope is calculated based on the difference between bogey ratings and course rating, the difference giving an idea of the slope of a graphical relationship for difficulty.

Harrogate has a bogey rating of 95.4 (white tees), Knaresborough 97.0 (white).

So I would say Harrogate is the tougher course, with a higher course and bogey rating relative to par, although Knareborough is slightly more similarly tough for low and higher players, if you see what I mean.

I must say I'm not convinced that par should play any part in difficulty comparisons. 18 x 400 yards is the same par as 18 x 300 yards - 72

 

[Ethan]

I must say I'm not convinced that par should play any part in difficulty comparisons. 18 x 400 yards is the same par as 18 x 300 yards - 72

Well, the data analyst in me says that if you assume that a par-4 is not more difficult than a par-3 per se, then the difference between par and course rating is a good indicator of difficulty. In your example the 18 x 400yd course would very likely have a higher course rating than the 18 x 300yd.

 

[rulefan]

In your example the 18 x 400yd course would very likely have a higher course rating than the 18 x 300yd.

Yes, that is my point. CR & Slope(or BR) are the key elements.