WHS course rating

[rulefan]

Midlothian

I thought Scottish courses had been rated under the USGA system for at least 10 years. Perhaps the Union has not updated the database yest.

 

[rulefan]

I'd have thought Carnoustie at least would be there.

That's odd. It was there a couple of weeks ago.
In fact I can't see any Scottish courses now

 

[ger147]

That's odd. It was there a couple of weeks ago.
In fact I can't see any Scottish courses now

I've been checking it for months to try and find out about the courses near me, none of them are in the DB.

 

[nickjdavis]

They wouldn't if it hadn't been scheduled beforehand.
The raters are not employees. They are volunteers with other things to do in life. Maybe picking the kids up from school or as in our case driving nearly 100 miles to get home.

I'm well aware that the Course raters are volunteers. I tried to volunteer myself many years ago. I also remember that a date was booked with the club for them to turn up and no options were given to the club as to giving our input into what they did. We never got a choice as to what tees were rated for what genders.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

That's odd. It was there a couple of weeks ago.
In fact I can't see any Scottish courses now

heard from some folks that Scotland are doing things differently, apparently.

so much for a world handicap system?!

 

[NearHull]

I have assisted in rating a handful of courses. In all instances a group of men , generally three, rated white and yellows whilst a group of ladies rated the reds. The greens were rated by the group that arrived at the green first.

 

[rulefan]

I'm well aware that the Course raters are volunteers. I tried to volunteer myself many years ago. I also remember that a date was booked with the club for them to turn up and no options were given to the club as to giving our input into what they did. We never got a choice as to what tees were rated for what genders.

Very odd and disappointing as England Golf was strongly promoting the idea of multigender ratings when they first started using the USGA system for men's tees.

 

[cliveb]

Our course has all three tees (white, yellow, red) rated for both genders.
That said, I've never seen a lady ever want to play off anything other than the reds.
And woe betide any man who is spotted by a lady using the reds ("what are you doing using OUR tees").

 

[Ethan]

Bearwood Lakes has blue tees and the ratings for them are as follows:

Women: par 72, course rating 74.7, bogey rating 106.4, slope 135
Men: par 71, course rating 68.7, bogey rating 92.5, slope 128

It is hard to see how one gender neutral set of ratings for those tees could fairly serve both genders.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Excellent regarding the ratings.

You maybe just don't see women on those tees as the vast majority won't. I regularly play off yellows and whites at my course but often only when I'm on my own. For "fun", I played the whites the day after the championship finals day when they were all placed as far back as they could go. That was... interesting! Also if I'm playing a bounce game with guys I just play whatever tees they are using in order be sociable.

Plus any time I play a social game at another course I have a good think about what tees will be best for my enjoyment based on length, positioning and conditions on the day.

Last point, yeah that can be an issue. Plenty of reasons for it, some valid others not really. The main reasonable objection is that the red tees are often small and poorly maintained in comparison to the others and we play our comps off them so a degree of protection is maybe needed. That depends on the course, doesn't apply everywhere. Sadly unreasonable "men vs women" attitudes go both ways.

By only rating red tees for the women, clubs are doing a disservice to the better players such as yourself who need a stronger test from time to time.

Do all elite events play from the red tees or do you play from tees further back?

In future will all elite events need to be held on the handful of courses who have different tees rated for women?

Our very back mens tee's are very rarely used as there are a couple of carries that are simply too long for the vast majority of members yet they are rated.

An effort should be made to cater for the better women golfer who want a sterner test than the standard red tee.

Just noticed we have a set of green tees that have a rating for women but I suspect there are the same tees the juniors play off, so we are as guilty as most clubs in this regard. The better woman golfer could have a very good test of her game off the yellows round Silloth, less so off the reds.

 

[rulefan]

Bearwood Lakes has blue tees and the ratings for them are as follows:

Women: par 72, course rating 74.7, bogey rating 106.4, slope 135
Men: par 71, course rating 68.7, bogey rating 92.5, slope 128

It is hard to see how one gender neutral set of ratings for those tees could fairly serve both genders.

There will not be a neutral gender rating. But the same tees are rated separately for each gender using the appropriate gender specific parameters (eg length of drive, depth of bunkers).

 

[Grant85]

I imagine if it had been possible to do away with gender ratings, this would have been done.

I guess the average hitting distance just makes whatever way you square this as unfair to one section of players. Especially on a huge variation of courses that might range from a short course where there is only a few yards between mens and womens tees, to huge championship layouts that might stretch out to 7,700 yards but still have shorter sets of tees at 4,900.

Also in all the clubs I've been at, there has been few little instances of men and women playing in the same competition - certainly strokeplay. Other than designated mixed events and in a scramble.

I think generally there is not an appetite for or requirement for men and women to play in the same competition and there's always a hack if a smaller club want to run informal events.

 

[rulefan]

I imagine if it had been possible to do away with gender ratings, this would have been done.

I guess the average hitting distance just makes whatever way you square this as unfair to one section of players.

Also in all the clubs I've been at, there has been few little instances of men and women playing in the same competition - certainly strokeplay. Other than designated mixed events and in a scramble.

I think generally there is not an appetite for or requirement for men and women to play in the same competition and there's always a hack if a smaller club want to run informal events.

Both the WHS and CONGU systems make specific provision for men and women to play in the same competition (strokeplay or matchplay). And England Golf in particular encourages the practice.

 

[Grant85]

Both the WHS and CONGU systems make specific provision for men and women to play in the same competition. And England Golf in particular encourages the practice.

Yes, but my understanding is that it won't involve them playing the same set of tees with the same course rating. So yes, it can be done and a net winner declared, but it's not the same as everyone playing the same set of tees on the same day with a handicap calculated on the same system.

And while it's encouraged or not, I don't believe there is an appetite for it. I would be perfectly happy to play in a competition with whoever but the fact is that plenty would either be intimidated or rude / disrespectful playing with the opposite gender.

 

[rulefan]

Yes, but my understanding is that it won't involve them playing the same set of tees with the same course rating. So yes, it can be done and a net winner declared, but it's not the same as everyone playing the same set of tees on the same day with a handicap calculated on the same system.

As the tees are rated using different gender specific parameters, one set of tees will not have the same Course Rating for men and women. However the appropriate handicap adjustment will take care of any inequality. In the same way that slope will now make it more sensible for high handicappers to play in the same competition as low handicappers.

For men and women to play the same tees with the same rating makes no allowance for physical limitations. When have you seen a woman run in the same race as Mo Farah?

 

[Springveldt]

I noticed on the database the other day that the country filter for Scotland filter was broken. If I put my brothers course in and selected Scotland as the country it couldn’t find it but when I changed the filter to (Select) it found his course then.

 

[Mandofred]

I thought I just saw an update of our course rating a week or so ago....can't find it now. I think it got updated to the upper 120's. Mgr went a bit nuts with the first rating and fought for a tougher rating....it rated us easier than a local course that is considered a fair bit easier. Makes me wonder how accurate these ratings even are......????? Is this kind of like ice skating judges....with their crazy pre-conceived bias?

 

[rulefan]

I noticed on the database the other day that the country filter for Scotland filter was broken. If I put my brothers course in and selected Scotland as the country it couldn’t find it but when I changed the filter to (Select) it found his course then.

Thanks for that. It seems to work for England & Wales either way.

 

[rulefan]

I thought I just saw an update of our course rating a week or so ago....can't find it now. I think it got updated to the upper 120's. Mgr went a bit nuts with the first rating and fought for a tougher rating....it rated us easier than a local course that is considered a fair bit easier. Makes me wonder how accurate these ratings even are......????? Is this kind of like ice skating judges....with their crazy pre-conceived bias?

Do you mean Course Rating or Slope. I wonder if your manager is confused.
I have never encountered a course rated at 120+

 

[Mandofred]

Do you mean Course Rating or Slope. I wonder if your manager is confused.
I have never encountered a course rated at 120+

Or....the most likely result is that I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm just talking rubbish. Mgr is not likely confused. I can't find whatever it is was sent out on our Facebook page....more rubbish on my part.