THE RESPONSIBILITY TO RETURN SCORES FROM COMPETITIONS

[sunshine]

that’s interesting.

we are IG too, and not had to submit a photo of the scorecard at all. Just complete the scorecard in the app and submit

But if you don't take a photo of the card, where is the record? Assume someone has to look after the physical card? I've never thought of it before, but what has happened to all the scorecards I've popped into the box over the last 10 years?

We moved to photos last year and once submitted you can bin the card.

 

[upsidedown]

This describes the Sat am roll-up competition that I play in, and at least for as long as we use the club tee booking and round scoring recording system (IG) to manage tee times it is going to be considered a 'counting' round for WHS purposes.

As we play the roll-up as a singles stableford competition open to anyone in the club, the club has determined that in the spirit of what WHS is intended to achieve it will be considered a 'counting' comp and my entry into it will be my pre-registration. I was dead against this until I saw the light and changed my mindset over WHS 'counting' rounds. And now the fact of it 'counting' doesn't bother me one iota. I suspect that it will remain a 'counting' comp even if the membership decides we wish to ditch tee booking as this was only introduced when coming out of lockdown#1.

The same is to apply for all the singles club rollups.

Our roll ups in the main are 4BBB but under covid were individual as I posted earlier in the thread. As we will still be individual when we go back Match want the participants to pre register their rounds in said roll ups but there has been some resistant. Wise they were as enlightened as you ?.
I

 

[Old Skier]

But if you don't take a photo of the card, where is the record? Assume someone has to look after the physical card? I've never thought of it before, but what has happened to all the scorecards I've popped into the box over the last 10 years?

We moved to photos last year and once submitted you can bin the card.

Physical cards were kept for around a year in case they were required for auditing by county.

Having had various meetings with our county HC rep it appears that people are getting confused by current EG Play Safe guidelines and the fact that under normal circumstances there will still be a requirement for the completion of physical cards. We are having a county HC meeting at the end of the month and I know clarification on this is on the agenda.

 

[sunshine]

The other point is still valid in as much as these scores go into WHS directly. If you have photos of each one is someone going to open each one and check the hole by hole scores and the handicap / date / etc to check they are correct and cancel the score if necessary?

How is this different from a physical card? Does / did someone go through each card to check all details are correct? Hope not . Maybe just check the top 3?

The way IG was set up at our club:
- the player is responsible for entering their score on the app / terminal.
- the marker is responsible for submitting the photo of the signed card and assigning it to the player.

 

[jim8flog]

Oh dear. That’s likely to add to the confusion.

We have put up notices next the scores input screens, notices on our competitions board and sent out an email about it.

I bet a few will still get it wrong.

 

[jim8flog]

(I've skipped most of the pages so sorry if it's been said.)

If you don't register your score doesn't the system give you a net double for every hole? So if you don't put your card in you'll be given an astronomical score? Nice easy way to get the handicap up?

No it is not. You have to record a score for minimum number of holes for the score to count for handicap purposes and holes not started are treated differently to holes started but not finished.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

But if you don't take a photo of the card, where is the record? Assume someone has to look after the physical card? I've never thought of it before, but what has happened to all the scorecards I've popped into the box over the last 10 years?

We moved to photos last year and once submitted you can bin the card.

??‍ I asked what I needed to do. Never got asked for a picture of the scorecard. Submitted 2 or 3 cards and no issues.

I had imagined I’d need to submit the card but nope. Hoping the changes to the EG app make it easy to submit too

 

[jim8flog]

THIS is the problem and where it all falls down. What H/C person would "disipline" a member? Only one that has skin like a Rhino. He/she would be hated and who wants to be hated? Nope. The way to deal with players messing about it to post the scroes on the computer. This then is fired off to England golf and they deal with the culprit. I suggest they block the golfers CDH number for a period of time, therefore blocking any Open comps and home comps / knockouts whatever. It CANNOT be left to the club H/C Sec's to meter out punishment.

We went all the way with one player. Despite repeated warnings he just carried on his way regardless. He had his Handicap suspended which meant he could not play in any comp at any club and he had entered for a couple of county events. When word got round we had a big fall off in players not abiding by the rules for cards.

When I first joined the handicap committee we regularly had 20 or so players not put their cards in after a comp by after we got a bit more strict about it became the odd 2 or 3.

 

[rosecott]

Yes for sure, I know that bit.

But I'm querying the statement that we were obliged to continue writing scores for each hole once we'd lost the will to live...

Where do we start? A few extracts from the CONGU manual which applied up to November last year and the principles still hold good.:

The UHS is based on the following fundamental premises: • every player will endeavour to make the best score he can at each hole in every qualifying round he plays and will report all such rounds for handicap purposes;

Unions have a duty to ensure that Affiliated Clubs discharge their responsibilities in full. Sanctions may be taken against any party that does not observe either the spirit or intent of the system. Any player who fails to act with integrity and carry out the responsibilities imposed by the UHS shall not be entitled to a CONGU® Handicap.

The Player must - Ensure that all competition cards in Qualifying Competitions, whether or not complete, are returned to the organising committee, and make such computer entries as may be required – see Decisions, Dec.1(m) and Dec.1. Note: It is expected that every player who enters a Qualifying Competition intends to complete the round.

Players should be aware of the significance of the Stableford / Nett Double Bogey Adjustment. This adjustment allows a player who has a ‘bad’ score on a hole(s) or does not complete a hole(s), for any reason, to continue to record a score on subsequent holes for handicap purposes. This sustains the golfing interest and at the same time provides valuable handicap information. See Clause 19

 

[Deleted member 1147]

Where do we start? A few extracts from the CONGU manual which applied up to November last year and the principles still hold good.:

The UHS is based on the following fundamental premises: • every player will endeavour to make the best score he can at each hole in every qualifying round he plays and will report all such rounds for handicap purposes;

Unions have a duty to ensure that Affiliated Clubs discharge their responsibilities in full. Sanctions may be taken against any party that does not observe either the spirit or intent of the system. Any player who fails to act with integrity and carry out the responsibilities imposed by the UHS shall not be entitled to a CONGU® Handicap.

The Player must - Ensure that all competition cards in Qualifying Competitions, whether or not complete, are returned to the organising committee, and make such computer entries as may be required – see Decisions, Dec.1(m) and Dec.1. Note: It is expected that every player who enters a Qualifying Competition intends to complete the round.

Players should be aware of the significance of the Stableford / Nett Double Bogey Adjustment. This adjustment allows a player who has a ‘bad’ score on a hole(s) or does not complete a hole(s), for any reason, to continue to record a score on subsequent holes for handicap purposes. This sustains the golfing interest and at the same time provides valuable handicap information. See Clause 19

Yeah, but have you got any proofs?

 

[Orikoru]

No it is not. You have to record a score for minimum number of holes for the score to count for handicap purposes and holes not started are treated differently to holes started but not finished.

Thanks, that's interesting. What is that number?

 

[rosecott]

Yeah, but have you got any proofs?

You have me there- I don't understand the question.

 

[jim8flog]

Thanks, that's interesting. What is that number?

For a 9 hole round all 9 holes must be scored

For an 18 hole round it is also 9 holes but that does not mean the first 9 holes.

Where a player has not started 4 of the holes the committee can apply penalty scores to those holes.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

How is this different from a physical card? Does / did someone go through each card to check all details are correct? Hope not . Maybe just check the top 3?

The way IG was set up at our club:
- the player is responsible for entering their score on the app / terminal.
- the marker is responsible for submitting the photo of the signed card and assigning it to the player.

There's a hole in my bucket .................

I was talking about General Play rounds not comps so the "top 3" is irrelevant. We had over 70 such rounds in December 2020 and it's going to be a lot more in the playing season.

 

[jim8flog]

Yeah, but have you got any proofs?

Is this what you are after?

Rules of Handicapping Rule 1.3

Responsibilities of the player

A player is expected to:
l Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain
from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose
of gaining an unfair advantage,
l Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,
l Submit acceptable scores for handicap purposes as soon as possible after
the round is completed and before midnight local time,
l Submit acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their
demonstrated ability,
l Play by the Rules of Golf, and
l Certify the scores of fellow players.
,

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Our roll ups in the main are 4BBB but under covid were individual as I posted earlier in the thread. As we will still be individual when we go back Match want the participants to pre register their rounds in said roll ups but there has been some resistant. Wise they were as enlightened as you ?.
I

We play in four balls and normally have a friendly informal 4BBB match in our group - though we don’t have to. But the formal rollup comp is the individual stableford. Clearly as our individual rounds will now be counting, we need to hole out when previously the rollup comp permitted sensible gimmes in the context of the 4BBB match.

But a moments consideration about how I think about that told me that it didn’t matter. My 4 ball opponents can give me the putt if they want, and I then take as much care as I want over holing out. But as it is gimme length that shouldn’t take me long. If I miss it then it counts in the context of my rollup score, but the miss is irrelevant if already given in the context of the informal 4BBB Match.

 

[2blue]

WELL........ many thanks for folk's contributions..... that's 8 pages of quite enlightening stuff for me to take to our H/cap Team Zoom this afternoon. From someone, early on, having a 'hissy-fit' over my use of the WHS term General Play to that, in some Clubs, scores will now be counting that otherwise would have got away.
If nothing else I get the feeling that WHS is going to have a much greater positive impact on H/caps & our golf than, perhaps we ever thought.

 

[AliMc]

Nearly all the white and yellow tees are side by side. Some yellow tees are slightly forward.
Course rating white 72.3
Course rating yellow 70.4. Big difference there.
Should only be allowed from yellows at the moment in my opinion. Just as was the case for supplementary score before WHS.

Fully accept that Ken, no arguments, but I will have a lot of GP cards, my 20th counting score has already moved forward by 8 months from what it was on 1st Nov, I fully expect that during this year my 20th score will be within 3 or 4 months of the current date so my handicap should be reflective of how I am playing, we are currently playing a short course and I have come down, when we go back to the full course I could go back up, is that not what whs is for ?

 

[KenL]

Fully accept that Ken, no arguments, but I will have a lot of GP cards, my 20th counting score has already moved forward by 8 months from what it was on 1st Nov, I fully expect that during this year my 20th score will be within 3 or 4 months of the current date so my handicap should be reflective of how I am playing, we are currently playing a short course and I have come down, when we go back to the full course I could go back up, is that not what whs is for ?

WHS should reflect your potential to play at a certain level on any course.
The course though is rated depending on the length and difficulty of the course.
Putting in scores "off the whites" in theory gives you an artificially low index.
A handicap gives us all the ability to compete against others on a more level playing field. Gaining a low handicap over the winter will not allow a level playing field if others haven't done the same.
I wonder if you are losing matches just now that you might not have lost?

 

[D-S]

WHS scores. like CONGU 'qualifying scores', must be played over a measured courses within the acceptable parameters - i.e. no more than 100 yards shorter than the measured length for the tees played off. If there is a short 'winter' course in play then the club can apply for a temporary course rating.

If the Club is accepting scores for submission from a set of tees that are not within the parameters set out, they are breaching the WHS rules and simply should stop.