Submitting scores on a Captain's Away Day

[RichA]

Rule clarifications 2.1a/2: "Rule 1.3(i) states that a player is expected to “submit all acceptable scores to provide reasonable evidence of their demonstrated ability”.

Are you sure you haven't added the word "all"?

 

[Deleted member 35577]

I find it interesting that elite competitions can/will ballot out people with too many GP cards in their handicap record.

 

[wjemather]

This is an interesting line which seems to encourage not submitting cards that would not provide reasonable evidence of one's demonstrated ability. So if one is starting out without the intention of playing to one's ability, then you should not submit a card. Murkier and murkier. Maybe we are correct to not be submitting GP cards in the main ? It is a better option than the American model I think.

You're intentionally twisting the meaning to suit your crazy idea for everyone to cheat/make up whatever score they like to give themselves the handicap they think they should have.

"Submit all acceptable scores" and your handicap will be what it will be, which will be an accurate reflection of how you actually score.

 

[wjemather]

Are you sure you haven't added the word "all"?

Yes - it was copy & pasted in full, the only change was the bolding of the word "must".
For reference, this clarification appears in the 2024 rules on page 36.

 

[Bratty]

Are you sure you haven't added the word "all"?

No, they didn't. It's there.

 

[wjemather]

I find it interesting that elite competitions can/will ballot out people with too many GP cards in their handicap record.

No they won't.

They may reject entries from players who demonstrate a significant discrepancy between their competition and general play score differentials. This analysis is triggered by the number of gp scores, but there is no limit to the number of gp scores that may be accepted if there is no discrepancy found.

 

[Deleted member 35577]

No they won't.

They may reject entries from players who demonstrate a significant discrepancy between their competition and general play score differentials. This analysis is triggered by the number of gp scores, but there is no limit to the number of gp scores that may be accepted if there is no discrepancy found.

Yes they will.

 

[sunshine]

You're intentionally twisting the meaning to suit your crazy idea for everyone to cheat/make up whatever score they like to give themselves the handicap they think they should have.

"Submit all acceptable scores" and your handicap will be what it will be, which will be an accurate reflection of how you actually score.

I'm with backsticks. It's an American system and we need to evolve out thinking. My best card out of 20 is a texas scramble. I counted all my shots.

 

[RichA]

Yes - it was copy & pasted in full, the only change was the bolding of the word "must".
For reference, this clarification appears in the 2024 rules on page 36.

OK. Didn't realise you were in the USA and using the USGA Rules of Handicapping.
I'm in the UK so use the R&A Rules of Handicapping which doesn't use the word ALL. Given the context of this conversation that seems relevant.

 

[Bratty]

OK. Didn't realise you were in the USA and using the USGA Rules of Handicapping.
I'm in the UK so use the R&A Rules of Handicapping which doesn't use the word ALL. Given the context of this conversation that seems relevant.

It's in the R&A and USPGA combined guide too though, according to this doc:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://scga.org/pdfs/2024%2520Rules%2520of%2520Handicapping%2520(V1).pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjFuYHbzNGEAxUPVkEAHSsMBOsQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3HaRFH3FUF8BjeUkNOW7M5

I'm confused now.

 

[wjemather]

OK. Didn't realise you were in the USA and using the USGA Rules of Handicapping.
I'm in the UK so use the R&A Rules of Handicapping which doesn't use the word ALL. Given the context of this conversation that seems relevant.

I'm not sure when the clarification was issued, but it is included in the GB&I rules from April.

Seems it is needed in order to put an end to people trying to lawyer their way around the rules.

 

[RichA]

No such thing as a practice round with a mate from April then?

 

[wjemather]

No such thing as a practice round with a mate from April then?

Of course there is.
A practice round with a mate isn't an organised competition; and general play rounds still need to be pre-registered and meet all the usual conditions to be acceptable for handicapping.

 

[rulefan]

OK. Didn't realise you were in the USA and using the USGA Rules of Handicapping.
I'm in the UK so use the R&A Rules of Handicapping which doesn't use the word ALL. Given the context of this conversation that seems relevant.

Where did you get that?
My copy of the Rules doesn't include an interpretation 2.1a(2)

OK. Didn't realise you were in the USA and using the USGA Rules of Handicapping.
I'm in the UK so use the R&A Rules of Handicapping which doesn't use the word ALL. Given the context of this conversation that seems relevant.

Where did you get that? In my copy of the RoH 2.1a(2) doesn't appear.

 

[2blue]

The problem is in the wording...Governing bodies are very fond of the word SHOULD.
Should can be used to show obligation, give recommendation or even an opinion...
If they want cards to be put in whenever course set up allows then simply use the word MUST.....
Clears everything up, no wiggle room, no argument.
Use SHOULD and its open to interpretation.

I can understand you wanting that due to so many happy to ignore their responsibilities but sadly it will then fall on other Club members to report them & that is never healthy in a game that relies on folks integrity. We've seen here just how much we can rely on that. 'Tis the reason Alwoodley never make mats mandatory in winter..... members having to shop others.

 

[RichA]

Where did you get that?
My copy of the Rules doesn't include an interpretation 2.1a(2)

Where did you get that? In my copy of the RoH 2.1a(2) doesn't appear.

I didn't. That's the guy I was replying to, not me. You're probably using the R&A version, which is what I was looking at.

 

[2blue]

I was waiting for this reply.
I don't believe it is hard to judge my correct handicap based on the golf I play and the course(s) I play at.
In all likelihood, if the Captain said all cards in and we're playing to rules of golf, and not putting a card in meant not going, I'd put a card in and attend.
Unless of course he's playing it in the next week, in which case, a good few golf courses shouldn't even be open now they're so wet and why would I want to put a card in when the other day I was off the fairway 6 times and had 5 mudballs. No way are the current conditions appropriate or realistic for submitting a card.
Again, if that makes me a handicap cheat, I'll print the badge and wear it with pride.
By all means tell me I'm wrong and try to convince me otherwise, but you will not I'm afraid. Ever.
And finally, because I'm unwatching this again, I notice you ignored my first point which was the wording in the poll. Amd the only reason I said that was because you suggested another voting round, which seems rather undemocratic.

AND that's what I, as a responsible Captain, was creating as the H/cap Sec & myself, wanted that to happen & sadly, as we've found here, you can't rely on the integrity of all golfers to do what is clearly required of them.
I think your further stuff about mud-balls etc is rather irrelevant as courses are not then Q.
You must surely realize that the poll is not a democratic exercise but rather a gauge of folks feelings on putting in GP cards away from their course. The offer to re-think their vote after hearing more about their responsibilities was an opportunity for reflection.

 

[RichA]

This is reminding me why it took 50 years to find a golf club I could tolerate joining.

 

[Deleted member 35577]

AND that's what I, as a responsible Captain, was creating as the H/cap Sec & myself, wanted that to happen & sadly, as we've found here, you can't rely on the integrity of all golfers to do what is clearly required of them.
I think your further stuff about mud-balls etc is rather irrelevant as courses are not then Q.
You must surely realize that the poll is not a democratic exercise but rather a gauge of folks feelings on putting in GP cards away from their course. The offer to re-think their vote after hearing more about their responsibilities was an opportunity for reflection.

Maybe it's you that should have a rethink, throwing around mass accusations of cheating is not very responsible.

 

[2blue]

Maybe it's you that should have a rethink, throwing around mass accusations of cheating is not very responsible.

Just do what you should do & dont have a paddy over it.